1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS 2 3 CHENEDY ADAMS : CORPORATION, : 4 : Plaintiff, : 5 : VS. : No. 07-845C 6 : (Judge Hamilton) THE UNITED STATES, : 7 : Defendant. : 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 DEPOSITION OF JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA 15 VOLUME I 16 MAY 12, 1998 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 2 1 I N D E X 2 3 THE WITNESS: JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA 4 VOLUME I 5 6 EXAMINATION: PAGE 7 8 By Mr. Palmer ....................... 6 9 10 TRINDLE EXHIBITS: 11 12 Exhibit No. 2 ....................... 6 Exhibit No. 3 ....................... 98 13 Exhibit No. 4 ....................... 101 Exhibit No. 5 ....................... 101 14 Exhibit No. 6 ....................... 104 Exhibit No. 7 ....................... 106 15 Exhibit No. 8 ....................... 108 Exhibit No. 9 ....................... 111 16 Exhibit No. 10 ...................... 112 Exhibit No. 11 ...................... 114 17 Exhibit No. 12 ...................... 117 Exhibit No. 13 ...................... 120 18 Exhibit No. 14 ...................... 122 Exhibit No. 15 ...................... 122 19 Exhibit No. 16 ...................... 124 Exhibit No. 17 ...................... 127 20 Exhibit No. 18 ...................... 128 Exhibit No. 19 ...................... 130 21 Exhibit No. 20 ...................... 132 Exhibit No. 21 ...................... 133 22 Exhibit No. 22 ...................... 136 Exhibit No. 23 ...................... 137 23 Exhibit No. 24 ...................... 137 Exhibit No. 25 ...................... 146 24 Exhibit No. 26 ...................... 147 Exhibit No. 27 ...................... 152 25 Exhibit No. 28 ...................... 152 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 3 1 I N D E X 2 (Continued) 3 TRINDLE EXHIBITS (Continued) 4 5 Exhibit No. 29 ...................... 158 Exhibit No. 30 ...................... 160 6 Exhibit No. 31 ...................... 161 Exhibit No. 32 ...................... 163 7 Exhibit No. 33 ...................... 164 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF CHENEDY ADAMS 4 CORPORATION: 5 Mr. J. Robert Palmer 6 Mr. J. Jason Chen Keith & Dorset 7 2300 M Street, S.E., Suite 600 Washington, D.C. 20037 8 9 ALSO PRESENT: 10 Mr. Winward C. Quincy Mr. Jason A. Dickasulo 11 Mr. George E. Beauregard 12 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT THE UNITED STATES: 14 15 Mr. Steven Cayrnes Commercial Litigation Branch, Civil 16 Division United States Department of Justice 17 1100 L Street, S.E., 7th Floor Washington, D.C. 20530 18 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 Mr. Jason G. Cooley 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 5 1 The oral deposition of JENNIFER 2 CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA, was taken on May 12, 3 1998, beginning at 10:15 a.m., in the offices 4 of Candid Court Reporters, 2777 Allen 5 Boulevard, 5th Floor, Durham, Ford County, 6 Wyoming, before Nina S. Tyler, a Certified 7 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of 8 Wyoming, pursuant to Notice, the United States 9 Court of Federal Claims Rules, and the 10 following stipulation of counsel for the 11 respective parties that: 12 IT WAS STIPULATED AND/OR AGREED 13 that the deposition is to be signed by the 14 witness before any Notary Public or officer 15 authorized to administer oaths. 16 17 _ _ _ _ _ 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 6 1 JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA, 2 called as a witness and having been first 3 duly sworn, testified as follows: 4 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. PALMER: 7 Q Good morning, Ms. Trindle. Thank you for 8 coming today. 9 I'll now show you a document and 10 ask if you've seen this before. 11 MR. PALMER: The court reporter 12 will please mark it as Exhibit 2. 13 (Trindle Exhibit No. 2 14 marked for identification) 15 A This looks like the document that I received 16 by fax. 17 Q Including the attachment? 18 A Yes, although I would have to have the 19 original that I received to compare them 20 directly. 21 Q Do you have it with you? 22 A Excuse me? 23 Q Do you have it with you? 24 A No. 25 Q No. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 7 1 MR. PALMER: Do you have it, 2 Mr. Cayrnes? 3 MR. CAYRNES: I'm not sure I have 4 the one that Ms. Trindle received because she 5 probably received it from James Marie. I'm 6 confident that it's the same thing, but I'd 7 have to be looking at it to know that. 8 MR. PALMER: But you told me you 9 sent her the same thing he sent you. 10 MR. CAYRNES: No. I sent James 11 Marie -- actually, you sent James Marie a 12 copy. 13 MR. PALMER: Correct. 14 MR. CAYRNES: And when -- one 15 moment. 16 MR. PALMER: If there are any 17 differences -- 18 A This is what I received. 19 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Okay. Take a quick moment 20 and look at it and see if this is the same. 21 A This is not easy. I do not have my glasses. 22 It's been marked up. 23 Q The difference being that it's today's date 24 instead of the 12th, correct? 25 A Uh-huh, the 7th. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 8 1 Q Instead of the 7th, correct. 2 A They look to be the same. 3 Q Okay. Did you bring any documents today? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you review any documents before you came 6 here today? 7 A The documents I reviewed to see if they met 8 the requirements of that have been provided. 9 Q By whom? 10 A I gave them to Jay Cooley. 11 Q And what were they? 12 A I do not recall specifically other than there 13 was a briefing by Georgine O’Henry and there 14 were some personnel opportunity documents. 15 Q What are those? 16 A Hiring. 17 Q Who gets copies of those documents? 18 MR. COOLEY: Hopefully you 19 already have. 20 MR. CAYRNES: I want to note for 21 the record that there is somewhat of a lack 22 of clarity in terms of the notice insofar as 23 it identifies documents which appear to be 24 government documents as opposed to the 25 witness's own personal papers. As far as Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 9 1 we're aware, those documents have already 2 been produced, the documents that fit those 3 descriptions. I also mentioned to 4 Mr. Chen in a telephone conversation 5 that to the extent that there may be any 6 government documents within the scope of this 7 notice that were not previously produced -- 8 again, I don't know; I don't think there 9 are -- but to the extent that there might be, 10 the government would be entitled to 30 days 11 to respond under Rule 34. And request for 12 documents in a deposition notice, if it's 13 addressed to the government, would still be 14 subject to that Rule 34. To the extent that 15 it's not addressed to the government but to 16 the witness personally, it doesn't say one 17 way or the other which it is. I think the 18 understanding of the witness was these are 19 basically -- 20 MR. PALMER: I think she can 21 explain her own understanding. 22 MR. CAYRNES: All right. I won't 23 say what her understanding is. I can tell 24 you what the government's understanding was 25 in terms of addressing this, was that insofar Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 10 1 as this was looking for government documents, 2 there was no need to produce any documents in 3 response to this at this time for both of the 4 reasons that I gave. 5 MR. PALMER: Okay. But you're 6 aware there are a number of deficiencies in 7 the production of the government at this 8 point -- 9 MR. CAYRNES: That's a 10 contention. 11 MR. PALMER: -- some of which 12 have been identified. And during the process 13 of identifying, we'll address those. I'm 14 just interested in what she reviewed at this 15 particular point, not in addressing the 16 deficiencies in the government's production. 17 We'll address that at a given place and time 18 when that occurs, but right now I'm only 19 interested in what she saw. 20 A I also provided to James Marie my notes from 21 a meeting that occurred in Washington, which 22 you-all have copies of those. 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Those are handwritten 24 notes or typed? 25 A Typed. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 11 1 Q Okay. We'll get to that. You're referring 2 to the July 22nd meeting? 3 A Correct. 4 Q First of all, let's go back. I believe we 5 have your full name on the record. Would you 6 tell me what your additional background is, 7 please? 8 A I attended Raoul F. Dallas State Wyoming; 9 Raoul F. Dallas State Teacher's College; I 10 attended San Juan Community College; and I 11 also attended the University of Durham Clear 12 Lake. I have a degree in accounting, a 13 bachelor of science degree, and I'm a CPA. 14 Q And have you worked for any -- what was your 15 first job out of college, first full-time 16 job? I'm not talking about college-type 17 jobs. 18 A GOHS. 19 Q At GOHS. What was that position? 20 A I was a contract specialist. 21 Q Here at Bobson? 22 A Correct. 23 Q How long were you in that position? 24 A From 1987 as a co-op student until 25 approximately May of 1992. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 12 1 Q Did you have a warrant? 2 A I did not until 1993. 3 Q And that was -- so you were essentially 4 without warrant until May of '92. In May of 5 '92? 6 A No. I said until October or November of '93, 7 warrant. 8 Q So you got your warrant in October or 9 November of '93 is what you're telling me? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. So the contract specialist from 12 1987 -- you're a co-op student -- to May of 13 '92, you had no warrant? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And you were here at Bobson? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Now, in May of '92, where did you go? 18 A Washington, D.C. 19 Q In what capacity? 20 A As a detailee working in the Procurement 21 area. 22 Q Who did you work for? 23 A Helene Anderson. 24 Q Do you know how long she had been there at 25 the time you were detailed? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 13 1 A No, I don't recall. 2 Q What was her position? 3 A I don't recall when I went there. She became 4 the chief of staff. 5 Q To whom? 6 A Dan Swann. 7 Q The administrator? 8 A Of GOHS. 9 Q And did you get a new boss at that point, or 10 did you go with her? 11 A I don't understand your question. 12 Q Did you go on to her staff, on to Swann's 13 staff at that point? 14 A I worked for Helene Anderson when she was the 15 chief of staff for a brief period of time. 16 Q And how long was that? 17 A I don't recall specifically. 18 Q Approximately? 19 A I don't recall specifically. At some point 20 between when I first started working there 21 and prior to February of '93, I became the 22 assistant to the acting deputy director, Luke 23 Tomison. It may not be his correct title. 24 It may be acting associate deputy -- 25 Q Director? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 14 1 A I'm not certain of the title. 2 Q What was his position? 3 A At that time he held the position that Tom 4 O’Neil currently holds. 5 Q And Ms. Anderson remained the chief of staff? 6 A I don't recall. I believe so for some 7 period, yes. 8 Q And then how long were you the assistant to 9 the acting deputy director, to Tomison? 10 A I don't recall the number of months, but it 11 was until approximately February of '93. 12 Q Why have you -- I thought you said you worked 13 for Helene Anderson until approximately 14 February of '93. 15 A I said that sometime between the period of 16 May of '92 and February of '93 I stopped 17 working for Helene Anderson and became the 18 assistant to Luke Tomison. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And I don't recall the specific date. 21 Q Do you recall how many months you were in 22 each position? 23 A No, I don't. 24 Q Was one longer than the other? 25 A I don't recall. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 15 1 Q February of '93, what did you do? 2 A Approximately February I became the executive 3 assistant to Dan Swann. 4 Q Let's go back to when you worked for Helene 5 Anderson. This was in Procurement, I believe 6 you said, correct? 7 A (Witness nods head) 8 Q What were your duties? 9 A Initially, I was brought out there to relieve 10 a backlog of Procurement reforms. 11 Specifically, they had asked me to review the 12 computer system. I never did that; rather, 13 we ended up reviewing the overall structure 14 and organization of GOHS as a whole. 15 Q Just Procurement or the whole -- the 16 Procurement or the whole of GOHS? 17 A The whole of GOHS. 18 Q That would be the centers, everything? 19 A We were conducting, in essence, what was a 20 zero-based review. 21 Q Organizational? 22 A Not just organizations, but the work itself 23 and work assignments. 24 Q For example? 25 MR. CAYRNES: The question is a Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 16 1 little unclear. 2 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Give me an example. 3 MR. CAYRNES: Well, it's still 4 unclear. 5 MR. PALMER: An example of what 6 she's talking about? She knows what she's 7 talking about. I don't know what's not clear 8 except it's not clear to me. 9 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Give me an example of what 10 kind of work review you're talking about. 11 A There were a series of red and blue teams 12 that were reviewing work across GOHS. They 13 prepared reports dealing with what was going 14 on in particular areas, whether or not it was 15 Aeronautics or Aerospace or the SEO-IYS 16 Program, and I typed up a lot of those 17 reports. 18 Q I assume you were acting professionally, not 19 merely as a typist. Is that correct? 20 A To some extent, yes. 21 Q Well, what were your professional 22 responsibilities in this review, overall 23 structure? 24 A I can't provide a specific example. 25 Q Were you being used as a CPA? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 17 1 A Not in the classic sense of financial or tax 2 accounting. 3 Q What did you do besides type the reports? 4 A I attended meetings, reviewed input. I did a 5 lot of correspondence control. 6 Q Okay. 7 A Checked calendars. 8 Q Whose meetings did you review or did you 9 attend? 10 A Staff meetings under Helene Anderson. 11 Q That would be Helene Anderson's staff 12 meetings? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Any others? 15 A Meetings with Luke Tomison. 16 Q Any particular subject matter on any of 17 these? 18 A Many of them were general staff meetings; 19 some were meetings with people, employees or 20 contractors. 21 Q On any particular issues? 22 A A variety of issues. 23 Q Programs? 24 A Some. 25 Q What programs? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 18 1 A Aeronautics, for example. 2 Q Aeronautics and shuttle? 3 A Aeronautics is not shuttle. 4 Q Aeronautics is what then? 5 A Wind tunnels, airplanes, not space vehicles. 6 Q No Aeronautics on the shuttle? 7 MR. CAYRNES: Is that a 8 question? 9 Q (By Mr. Palmer) It's no Aeronautics on the 10 shuttle? 11 A There are certainly, as you well know, 12 aerodynamics involved in the shuttle. GOHS 13 has divided itself up into both Aeronautics 14 and Aerospace. 15 Q And the shuttle does not fall into 16 Aeronautics? 17 A Correct. 18 Q It falls under Space? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So even though the shuttle flies in the 21 atmosphere, it would be part of the Space 22 Division at GOHS? 23 A The Aeronautics and Aerospace are separate. 24 Ship is considered Aerospace, Space 25 Flight. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 19 1 Q Okay. So you reviewed that -- that was one 2 of the programs that you were reviewing -- 3 MR. CAYRNES: Was that -- 4 Q (By Mr. Palmer) One of the structures of 5 the Ship Program? 6 A I would not classify it as reviewing. I did 7 not perform a review. I'm not technical. 8 Q The structure of -- the division that you 9 just described between Aerospace and 10 Aeronautics would be the structure -- the 11 type of structural division that you would be 12 reviewing in your duties or not? 13 A I've lost your train of thought. 14 Q You just described a division of GOHS. Even 15 though the shuttle looks like an airplane and 16 performs like an airplane and certain aspects 17 of its missions -- 18 A We did not discuss those in Aeronautics 19 meetings. 20 Q Did you discuss those in Aerospace meetings? 21 A If there were Aerospace meetings, the shuttle 22 would probably have been involved. 23 Q So that's part -- that is attributable to the 24 GOHS structure, correct, that division? 25 A Yes. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 20 1 Q You testified that you reviewed the overall 2 structure of GOHS? 3 A I would not testify to that. 4 Q You did not review the -- 5 A I did not review personally. I am not 6 technical. 7 Q So what did you mean when you said you 8 reviewed the overall structure of all of 9 GOHS? 10 A I reviewed meetings where presentations were 11 made on the overall structure of how we did 12 the work, where we could change emphasis or 13 focus. 14 Q In order to do what? 15 A In order to meet budget requirements. 16 Q With an emphasis on preparing the next budget 17 or the current budget? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Was it both? 20 A There was probably a degree of both. 21 Q What was your purpose in those meetings then 22 as a non-technical person? 23 A It was a developmental position for me. 24 Q How would it develop you? In Procurement? 25 Were you a Procurement series civil servant Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 21 1 at this point still? 2 A Yes. 3 Q At approximately what grade? 4 A GS-08. 5 Q And it was to develop you to what? 6 A Understand more fully the scope of GOHS's 7 work. 8 Q And the career path that this development 9 would take you where? 10 A I did not know. 11 Q Who detailed you? 12 A Bobson Space Center. 13 Q Was it an established program or an 14 individual detail? 15 A Individual detail. 16 Q Who detailed you? 17 A I don't understand your question. 18 Q Who by name sent you to Washington? 19 A Gene Demaun. 20 Q And that was the director of human resources 21 at Bobson? 22 A No. 23 Q That's your boss? 24 A Indirectly. 25 Q Who recommended you for this? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 22 1 A Antoinette Rice. 2 Q How did you know Antoinette Rice? 3 A She had been my boss. 4 Q Here at Bobson? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Was she working in a Procurement capacity at 7 that point? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What was that? 10 A At the time -- at what time? 11 Q At the time she detailed you or before -- the 12 time she was your boss. 13 A At the time she was my boss, she was working 14 in a Procurement capacity. 15 Q And what was that capacity? 16 A She was a branch chief. She later became a 17 division chief, so she was my boss up the 18 chain. 19 Q And she knew your work, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So she recommended you to go to Washington to 22 this job with Feders Group? 23 A Correct. 24 Q How long did you work for Antoinette? 25 A I started working for her full-time in 1989, Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 23 1 and I do not recall when she left the Bobson 2 Space Center or I no longer worked for her. 3 Q And so it was from 1989 until she left? 4 A As branch chief? 5 Q Until she left Bobson, you worked for her? 6 A I worked for her when she was the branch 7 chief of the branch I was within. 8 Q And put a time frame around that for me. 9 It's 1989 to when? 10 A I don't know when she became the division 11 chief, and neither do I recall when she left 12 the Bobson Space Center. 13 Q But you worked for her either directly or 14 indirectly until she left Bobson? 15 A Correct. 16 Q Okay. With respect to these meetings that 17 you attended in this developmental mode, what 18 were your duties in attending them? 19 A Listen, observe. 20 Q Did you take notes? 21 A Sometimes. 22 Q Were you required to take notes ever? 23 A On occasion. 24 Q Was there a specific form that these notes 25 had to be in? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 24 1 A No. 2 Q What did you do with them when you took them? 3 A Put them in my desk. 4 Q They never became part of the file, permanent 5 file? 6 A No. 7 Q Now, you also indicated that you reviewed 8 input. What are you talking about? What 9 kind of input are you talking about? 10 A I don't recall the context of when I said 11 that. Could you elaborate? 12 Q You said that your duties included meetings, 13 reviewed and corrected Correspondence Control 14 calendars. What kind of input? 15 A If people provided reports, I may have read 16 them, for example. 17 Q And for what purpose? 18 A Sometimes for editing. 19 Q So they weren't final reports? 20 A Some were, some weren't. They may have been. 21 Q And would you ever summarize them for Helene 22 Anderson? 23 A No. 24 Q So what would you do with them? 25 A Often return them, sometimes throw them Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 25 1 away. It depended on the nature of the 2 report. 3 Q With comments? 4 MR. CAYRNES: Do you want to make 5 a full sentence on that question? It's not 6 clear the way it's stated. 7 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Returned with comments or 8 without? 9 A I don't recall returning items to Helene 10 Anderson with comments. 11 Q Did you receive the reports from Helene 12 Anderson? 13 A Your question is very vague to me. 14 Q These reports that you were reviewing -- it's 15 because you haven't been real clear on your 16 duties. If you can clarify your duties, 17 perhaps it would help a little bit. These 18 reports that you received as part of your 19 duties, from whom did you receive them or 20 what office or entity? 21 A There are reports that were prepared by 22 different organizations, and sometimes there 23 were briefings that were given, along with a 24 set of charts. So it would be from -- on 25 occasion, it would be from whoever was Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 26 1 providing the briefing. I would have their 2 briefing charts. There was a daily 3 correspondence file that contained a lot of 4 reports and briefings. With regard to the 5 red and blue teams, those were prepared and 6 sent to Luke Tomison, who gave them to me to 7 review for editing as well as reformatting. 8 Q And these reports would be reformatted or 9 edited for submission to someone else or some 10 other organization? 11 A Yes. The ones -- for example, the red and 12 blue team reports. 13 Q And where would they be going, the red and 14 blue team reports? 15 A I don't recall where they went. Eventually, 16 a report -- a final report -- that is, not 17 draft -- was prepared that summarized the 18 results of the red and blue team reviews. 19 Q And this was always part of Helene Anderson's 20 staff? 21 A And Luke Tomison. 22 Q And Luke Tomison's staff. Did he work for 23 her? 24 A No. 25 Q These were two separate things? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 27 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you did correspondence control in both 3 capacities as well? 4 A No. 5 Q Only in which one? 6 A Helene Anderson. 7 Q And what was Correspondence Control? 8 A Correspondence Control is the organization 9 that handles all incoming correspondence 10 addressed to the administrator's office and 11 distributes it and files it. 12 Q Do you review it? 13 A Pardon? 14 Q Did you review it as well? 15 A Review it? Define "it." 16 Q Correspondence. 17 A I read it. 18 Q Did you segregate it in any way according to 19 subject matter or prioritize it? 20 A That was not my job, no. 21 Q What did you do with it? 22 A It -- 23 Q Did you catalog it? 24 A It depended. If it was, for example, a 25 congratulations letter to Mr. Swann, one of Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 28 1 the tasks that I did was to provide a 2 response. Often if it was something else, 3 for example, a letter on Aeronautics, I 4 simply read it. 5 Q And then what would you do with it? 6 A Forward the file. 7 Q To whom? 8 A It was forwarded -- circulated throughout the 9 office. 10 Q And it would be circulated next to whom? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q After you saw it, where would you send it? 13 A I would put it in my out basket, and the 14 secretary would forward it. 15 Q Was it a part of your job to know where it 16 went? 17 A No. 18 Q None whatsoever? Now calendars, what did you 19 do? 20 A We had morning meetings where we reviewed the 21 calendar of the day -- who was doing what, 22 who was going where -- to ensure that we had, 23 for example, a driver for a trip to the Fort. 24 Q Would you do any direct scheduling of Helene 25 Anderson? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 29 1 A No. 2 Q Who did that? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q Who did the administrative scheduling? 5 A During what time frame? 6 Q This time frame, '92. 7 A I don't know. I did not work for him at the 8 time. 9 Q But Helene Anderson did, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q She was the executive assistant, you said? 12 A No. 13 Q What did you say? 14 A Chief of staff. 15 Q Chief of staff. I'm sorry. So your 16 maintenance of calendars included scheduling 17 of various -- 18 A I did not maintain calendars. 19 Q You reviewed calendars? 20 A (Witness nods head) 21 Q For what purpose? For scheduling services, 22 making sure that services were -- 23 A Ensuring there weren't conflicts as well. 24 Q And if there were conflicts, what did you do? 25 A Resolve the conflict. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 30 1 Q And you did this for both Tomison and for 2 Anderson or only for Anderson? 3 A Only Anderson during that time frame. 4 Q What were your duties with Mr. Tomison? 5 A Accompanied him to meetings. 6 Q And for what purpose? 7 A If he wanted me to tend to any issues, he 8 would ask me to perform a specific task. 9 Q Were these local to the Washington area, the 10 meetings? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Out of town as well? 13 A No. 14 Q Internal meetings only or also others? 15 A I only recall internal meetings. 16 Q And this was until around February of '93, 17 correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q At which point you became executive assistant 20 to the administrator? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What did your job description say, executive 23 assistant to the administrator? 24 A I don't recall. 25 Q How did it differ from being chief of staff? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 31 1 A I was never the chief of staff. I don't know 2 the difference. 3 Q Are you familiar with Helene Anderson's job? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did your job as executive assistant differ 6 from that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q How did it differ? 9 A Helene Anderson was in the position of making 10 decisions; I was not. 11 Q Making decisions about what? 12 A Personnel issues, policy issues. 13 Q You made no decisions as an executive 14 assistant at all? 15 A Not with respect to personnel or policy. 16 Q With respect to what could you make a 17 decision as executive assistant? 18 A That's too broad a question to answer. 19 Q Did you have daily contact with Mr. Swann? 20 A In? 21 Q In your job as executive assistant? 22 A When he was in town, yes. 23 Q Did you ever travel with him? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When you traveled, did you have daily contact Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 32 1 with him on the trips? 2 A Yes. 3 Q All right. Would you describe for me what 4 you did first thing in the morning when you 5 came in when you were in town as executive 6 assistant? What would you do for Mr. Swann 7 first thing in the morning? 8 A Reviewed the schedule for the day. 9 Q His schedule? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. Then what? 12 A Assisted him as necessary. 13 Q He would just call on you? 14 A No. 15 Q You said "no"? 16 A Correct. 17 Q He would not call on you? 18 A No. You asked if he would just call on me. 19 Q Oh, and you said -- he would just call on you 20 when he needed you? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. How would you interact with him? 23 A If he were going to a meeting, I would 24 accompany him to a meeting, not all meetings. 25 Q How would you know that you were to go or not Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 33 1 to go? 2 A Sometimes he would tell me he wanted me 3 there; sometimes he would tell me he didn't 4 want me there. 5 Q Would there be an indication on the schedule? 6 A No. 7 Q Who prepared the schedule? 8 A The secretary. 9 Q Mr. Swann's secretary -- 10 A Yes. 11 Q -- or yours? 12 A Mr. Swann's secretary. 13 Q Okay. When you would review it, what were 14 you reviewing it for? 15 A Where he was going, what he was going to be 16 doing. 17 Q Okay. Would you inquire as to what he wanted 18 you to do with respect to any items you saw 19 on the schedule? 20 A Sometimes. 21 Q Okay. Give me an example of something that 22 caused you to inquire? 23 A If he had a Fort visit, I would say, "Do you 24 want me to go with you?" 25 Q Okay. Otherwise, you would not go? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 34 1 A Otherwise? 2 Q You would not go? 3 A If he told me no, I would not go. 4 Q Did you coordinate staff work for him for any 5 of these visits to the Fort? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you coordinate staff work for him for any 8 meetings he attended? 9 A I don't understand what your definition of 10 "coordinate staff work" is. 11 Q You're a staffer, correct? 12 A Pardon? 13 Q At this point you're a staffer? You're on 14 his staff? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q That's what an executive assistant is, isn't 17 it? 18 A We may have differing opinions on what the 19 definition of a "staffer" is. 20 Q Give me yours. We'll work with that. 21 MR. CAYRNES: Bill, it's your 22 term, you know. 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Give me what you 24 understand "staff work" to mean. 25 A I can't answer that. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 35 1 MR. CAYRNES: If the witness 2 hasn't used a term, you can't assume that she 3 even has a definition. It's not her 4 terminology. 5 MR. PALMER: She speaks French. 6 She's been in a fairly high level in the 7 government. We all have been in the 8 government. That's a fine distinction. It 9 doesn't make any difference. She's aware 10 that every executive does not do everything. 11 He has a staff that accomplishes it. 12 MR. CAYRNES: That's right, but 13 that's not what the question is. 14 Q (By Mr. Palmer) The question is, did you 15 coordinate the accomplishment of that work by 16 his staff? 17 A I cannot answer that with a "yes" or a "no." 18 Q Well, we'll take it one step at a time then. 19 Let's assume that there is an Aeronautics 20 issue -- a hypothetical now, not real -- and 21 it has to be worked in a bureaucratic sense 22 for the Fort. Let's say Challenger -- that's 23 not Aeronautics; let's say Aerospace -- 24 because the Challenger blew up. That's a 25 classic issue of something that has to be Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 36 1 worked. Clearly, it is going to be staff 2 involvement; administrative staff is going to 3 be involved. Who would coordinate the staff? 4 MR. CAYRNES: Objection; the 5 question is vague as to the word "worked." 6 That's a certain kind of a jargon that 7 doesn't add to the clarity and precision of 8 the testimony. 9 MR. PALMER: Does she understand 10 the question? 11 MR. CAYRNES: It doesn't matter 12 whether she understands it or not. The 13 transcript is going to contain something that 14 is not going to be clear if you use jargon 15 and assume that the witness understands it 16 and understands it the same way you do or the 17 same way anybody who reads it would 18 understand it. 19 MR. PALMER: We can be here the 20 rest of the week, Mr. Cayrnes. 21 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Do you understand the 22 question? 23 A Let me answer in what I think you're trying 24 to get at. Did I go round up answers on this 25 Aeronautics issue? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 37 1 Q No. I said who coordinated the effort to 2 develop the administrator's testimony for the 3 Fort? 4 A The Legislative Affairs office coordinated 5 all testimony for Mr. Swann on the Fort. 6 Q Okay. Let's say we had something that was 7 not Fort involvement. He would be speaking 8 at a civic organization, for example, and it 9 would require someone to draw together 10 resources from around GOHS. Would that be 11 something that you would do? 12 A If it dealt with a Public Affairs issue, for 13 example, speaking at a civic event, Public 14 Affairs generally handled it. To the extent 15 of my involvement with staff work, I might 16 assure that he had his speech in hand, that 17 he had a presentation item in hand. 18 Q Who would send a task to the appropriate 19 office such as Public Affairs or Legislative? 20 A Sometimes I did. More frequently it was the 21 administrator speaking with the associate 22 administrators. 23 Q In his staff meetings? Would he be speaking 24 to them in his staff meetings when these jobs 25 would be handed out? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 38 1 A No, not generally. 2 Q It would be a one-on-one type of thing if he 3 had called them or directed you to call them? 4 A You're giving me a hypothetical that I can't 5 agree to. 6 Q Would you ever call them and say, "The 7 administrator wants you to take care of this 8 piece of business"? 9 A Occasionally. 10 Q And that would be either at his request or 11 self-initiated on those occasions you did it? 12 A Probably a little bit of both. 13 Q Who took care of Mr. Swann's travel 14 arrangements when you were executive 15 assistant? 16 A His secretary. 17 Q Did he or she also take care of yours as 18 well? 19 A I don't recall who took care of my travel 20 arrangements. 21 Q You coordinated it, though, or did someone 22 coordinate it? 23 A Yes. One of the secretaries in the suite 24 did. 25 Q And did you have a secretary? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 39 1 A No. 2 Q What did you do for secretarial assistance? 3 A I used the other principals -- I used the 4 principals' secretaries. 5 Q By "principals," who do you mean? 6 A Mr. Swann, Helene Anderson, Mr. Tomison. 7 Q Would that depend on for whom you were 8 performing a particular task? 9 A I don't recall. 10 Q Who made appointments for the administrator? 11 A A variety of people. 12 Q Was there one central appointment book? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Who kept it? 15 A Mr. Swann's secretary. 16 Q And do you recall who that was? 17 A Mandy Greene. 18 Q Now, when this variety of people made 19 appointments for him, would they check with 20 you or only with her? 21 A Sometimes they asked me to check with her, 22 and sometimes they would check with her 23 directly to get it entered into the book. 24 Q Would there ever be a screening to determine 25 if a given appointment was going to be Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 40 1 allowed or not? 2 A Sometimes people would ask questions 3 regarding whether Mr. Swann wanted to meet 4 with this person or not. 5 Q Who would make the decision, that decision to 6 meet or not to meet? 7 A It depends on the situation. 8 Q Would you ever make that decision? 9 A I don't recall. 10 Q You don't recall ever making the decision, or 11 you don't recall -- 12 A I don't recall a specific incidence. 13 Q Where you made the decision? 14 A Correct. 15 Q But you could have? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Now, for these meetings, whose duty was it to 18 inform and prepare Mr. Swann? 19 A For what meetings? 20 Q Any meetings that he had on his appointment 21 book. 22 A It would depend on the subject matter. 23 Q Okay. Give me an example. If it involved a 24 budget issue, let's say, would that be 25 something that you would brief him on? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 41 1 A No. 2 Q Who would do it? 3 A Most likely, someone out of the chief 4 financial officer's office. 5 Q So when an appointment is made, who 6 determines what issues are involved and 7 coordinates the preparation? 8 A I don't recall specifically. It would depend 9 on the situation. 10 Q Wouldn't you as executive assistant make that 11 determination? 12 A Of? 13 Q What the issues are and what information 14 needs to be gathered for the administrator to 15 be prepared for the meeting? 16 A No, I would not make that decision. 17 Q Mandy Greene would make it? 18 A No. 19 Q Then who? 20 A It would depend on what the meeting was. For 21 example, if it was a budget issue, the chief 22 financial officer would make that decision 23 and would come forward with the appropriate 24 information or data. 25 Q So would each significant officer review the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 42 1 schedule to determine for him or herself 2 whether or not they should provide data to 3 the administrator? 4 A I don't believe there's ever a case where 5 each associate administrator would come look 6 at the calendar and decide what to do. 7 Q Well, how would they know whether there was a 8 meeting affecting their functional area on 9 the calendar if they didn't do it? 10 A Most often, they were the ones who put the 11 meeting on the calendar. 12 Q So if they didn't put the meeting on the 13 calendar, how would they know? Would that be 14 your duty? 15 A I don't recall that I did that. 16 Q Mandy Greene's duty? 17 A I don't recall that she did that. 18 Q So as executive assistant to the 19 administrator, just what were your duties? 20 A To do what Mr. Swann wanted me to do, to 21 assure that he had the -- that he was on time 22 to meetings, to assure that -- for example, I 23 knew that there was a regular list of things 24 that he liked to have when he went to do a 25 public speaking event. He wanted to have Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 43 1 presentation items. He wanted to have 2 meatball pens. He wanted to have his speech 3 in a particular blue book -- box. He had a 4 lot of structure to the way he operated. 5 Q Did he inform you of the structure, or did 6 you have to determine it yourself? 7 A I determined it by observation. 8 Q And you gave us a list of things here. Did 9 it include talking points? I don't recall if 10 you said that or not. 11 A I did not say that. If it was a speaking 12 event, he generally had a speech or some set 13 of talking points with him. 14 Q And who would prepare the speech? 15 A Speeches were prepared by a speech writer. 16 Q Would you arrange that as executive 17 assistant? 18 A In meetings that we had where we would review 19 the calendar, the speech writer was generally 20 always in those meetings and would know that 21 a speech was coming up. 22 Q Was there a structure for coordination of the 23 speech? 24 A Not a hard set structure. Most often -- and 25 I'm speaking of a public speech -- the speech Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 44 1 writer would talk to Mr. Swann, ask him for 2 what the themes were that he wanted to have 3 addressed. He or she would prepare the 4 speech, would give it to Mr. Swann for 5 review. They would discuss it. He would put 6 his changes in -- he would discuss changes he 7 wanted to see made to the speech, and it went 8 back and forth through generally several 9 iterations. 10 Q Did you generally attend those speeches that 11 he gave when he gave them? 12 A Yes, when they were in town. 13 Q Were you also a party at these meetings that 14 you just described? 15 A Sometimes. 16 Q Was it Mr. Swann's habit to digress from his 17 prepared text in these matters? 18 A When he gave a speech? 19 Q When he gave a speech, yes. 20 A Generally, no, for public speeches. 21 Q Were they handed out? Were the text of the 22 speeches given to the press before he gave 23 them generally? 24 A I don't recall that ever happening. 25 Q Were text of the speeches ever given to the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 45 1 press? 2 A I don't recall that ever happening. 3 Q If they were given to the press, who would 4 give them to the press? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q Would Public Affairs be the logical 7 candidate? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Who prepared talking points for Mr. Swann? 10 A They generally were prepared by the cognizant 11 office. 12 Q Cognizant of what? 13 A For example, if the -- if Mr. Swann was 14 going to give a remark on Aeronautics, then 15 it would be someone in the Aeronautics office 16 who would prepare talking points and perhaps 17 even brief Mr. Swann. 18 Q And the briefing would take the place. How 19 formal would it be? Would it be stand-up 20 with slides? 21 A No. It would be in his office. 22 Q Just sitting down and discussing it? 23 A Correct. 24 Q How was a decision made between speech 25 preparation and talking points preparation? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 46 1 A Speeches were for formal events. 2 Q Whether public or private? 3 A I don't know how you can have a public event 4 that's private. 5 Q Whether the event is public or private, if 6 there's an event, say, a GOHS employees' 7 meeting where he's going to give a speech, 8 would he have a speech prepared for that, or 9 would he have talking points prepared for 10 that? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q I consider that a private matter. 13 A I don't recall specifically. 14 Q Were you ever involved directly in 15 preparations for any meeting that Mr. Swann 16 had in '92, '93? 17 A Define "directly involved." 18 Q Were you involved as a principal actor in 19 preparing for any meetings that Mr. Swann 20 had in 1992 or 1993? 21 A I would have to say no, using what I -- using 22 your definition. 23 Q My definition. Let's change it then. Were 24 you ever given specific and direct 25 responsibility for preparing for particular Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 47 1 meetings in that time frame? 2 A I don't recall. I never prepared talking 3 points for him, for example, with the 4 exception that one time when another person 5 out of Procurement and I were asked to 6 prepare a speech for Mr. Swann on 7 Procurement reform, and we wrote it. 8 Q And what was your relationship to Helene 9 Anderson during this time frame? 10 A She was the chief of staff, and we interfaced 11 with each other. 12 Q So how does executive assistant's duties -- 13 how did they differ from chief of staff? 14 A Chief of staff could make personnel and 15 policy decisions. I could not. 16 Q Okay. Can you give me a definition of 17 "executive assistant" that I can use as a 18 working definition for the rest of the day? 19 A Not off the top of my head. 20 Q Do you want to think about it a little bit 21 over the break? 22 A (Witness nods head) 23 Q Let's go on a little bit further. Did you 24 ever meet with people in Mr. Swann's stead? 25 A I don't recall ever doing that. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 48 1 Q Did you ever attend meetings on his behalf 2 and report to him on those meetings? 3 A I don't recall ever attending a meeting on 4 his behalf and reporting to him. 5 Q Do you ever recall reporting to him on a 6 meeting? 7 A I may have commented on a meeting I had 8 attended. 9 Q Never reported? 10 A Not in the sense I believe you mean it. 11 Q What sense do you mean it? 12 A Where I tell him what the results were from a 13 meeting or the substance of the meeting. 14 Q Did you meet with Procurement people when you 15 were executive assistant? 16 A I was probably in several meetings with 17 Procurement people. 18 Q On what subjects? 19 A A variety of subjects. 20 Q Procurement-related? 21 A Procurement reforms, contractual issues. 22 Q Financing? 23 A There may have been some budget issues. 24 Q Acquisition strategies? 25 A There were probably some acquisition strategy Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 49 1 sessions that I attended. 2 Q Any meetings with contractors? 3 A I sat in on some meetings with contractors. 4 Q During '92, '93? 5 A Yes. 6 Q On any particular program? 7 A No. Runs the gambit, anybody who got on the 8 calendar. 9 Q Center directors, did you meet with center 10 directors? 11 A Yes. 12 Q In Washington? 13 A Yes. 14 Q At the centers? 15 A I recall coming to -- going to at least two 16 centers while I was up there. 17 Q Which two? 18 A I recall going to Lustig, and I recall going 19 to the Bobson Space Center. 20 Q Do you recall the purpose? 21 A No, I don't. Mr. Swann had meetings at the 22 centers. 23 Q So you went with him? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And what were your duties in these meetings? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 50 1 A To sit in on his meetings occasionally, 2 assure that he had what he needed for the 3 trip. 4 Q When you'd sit in, what would you do? 5 A Observe, listen. If there were any actions 6 that were assigned, I would track the actions 7 that came from the meetings. I would also -- 8 generally, I maintained a list of who, for 9 example, at the centers gave Mr. Swann 10 briefings because he liked to send thank you 11 notes. 12 Q Would you draft the thank you notes? 13 A I don't recall drafting thank you notes to 14 briefings at centers. 15 Q Did you have a formal system for tracking 16 actions that resulted from these meetings? 17 A No. 18 Q How did you track them? 19 A I would let the actionee know that they had 20 an action if they weren't present. I don't 21 recall that actions weren't followed up on. 22 Q Do you have any kind of what we in the legal 23 business would call "docket control"? Do you 24 understand that phrase, term? 25 A I don't know what that means. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 51 1 Q Would you put the action on the calendar and 2 check with the actionee to see that the 3 action was completed? 4 A No. 5 Q How would you find out if one wasn't 6 completed? 7 A I don't recall that actions weren't 8 completed. If they weren't, somebody would 9 let me know. 10 Q That somebody would be Mr. Swann? 11 A Perhaps. Sometimes the actions were for me, 12 and I did them. 13 Q For example? Give me an example of an action 14 that would be for you. 15 A He might ask me to call one of the centers 16 and have them provide a list of some new 17 technologies that were being developed, and I 18 would call the center and they would prepare 19 it and they would give it to me. 20 Q Okay. Did you ever put on your calendar the 21 date it was promised and follow it up? 22 A No. I maintain a very good memory of -- 23 short term memory of those items. 24 Q So you maintained all this in your head? 25 A And I had -- I have lots of notes and Post-It Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 52 1 notes that I kept on my desk. 2 Q If an action wasn't completed, why would you 3 be let known -- why would you be led to know 4 an action wasn't completed if it wasn't? 5 A Someone might call me and say, "Jen, I can't 6 get that report to you today." Or Mr. Swann 7 might say to me something like, "Did you get 8 that report yet?" I'd go, "I didn't get it," 9 if it had not come in. 10 Q And you didn't maintain any way to follow up 11 to assure that you didn't have that 12 conversation? 13 A I am a list maker. I kept many lists of 14 outstanding items. 15 Q In a notebook? 16 A Yes, as well as piles of Post-It notes and 17 notes on paper. 18 Q And was this maintained by a secretary for 19 you, these notes? 20 A No. 21 Q How was it maintained? 22 A I maintained it personally. 23 Q And you kept these lists and checked them 24 daily? 25 A Not necessarily daily, but regularly, Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 53 1 frequently. 2 Q When you attended meetings, you didn't 3 take -- you said you didn't take notes at 4 the meetings. Is that correct? 5 A Sometimes I took notes, I said, I believe. 6 Q Was there always someone to take notes at 7 these meetings? 8 A No. 9 Q Never undocumented meetings? 10 A Undocumented in the sense that there were no 11 notes taken? 12 Q Or in any sense. 13 MR. CAYRNES: You've got to say 14 what you mean. 15 MR. PALMER: She said no notes 16 were taken. 17 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Was there a summary 18 prepared of the results? 19 A What result? 20 Q Of the meeting. 21 A I don't recall. That was not a regular part 22 of the process. 23 Q What was the regular process? 24 A I'm not sure there was a process. 25 Q No process at all? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 54 1 MR. CAYRNES: The real question 2 has been asked and answered. Now you're 3 getting into ... 4 Q (By Mr. Palmer) There was no process, no 5 structure for having these meetings? 6 A That's not correct. 7 Q What structure is there? 8 A If the meeting was on the calendar, he 9 attended the meeting. There may or may not 10 have been someone taking notes. It depended 11 on the meeting. 12 Q And how would the decision be made as to 13 whether or not notes would be taken? 14 A I don't know how that decision was always 15 made. 16 Q Who made that? 17 A Sometimes I decided to take notes on a 18 meeting. Sometimes Mr. Swann instructed 19 someone to take notes at a meeting. I'm 20 speaking specifically of Mr. Swann's 21 meetings. 22 Q And those notes of Mr. Swann's where he was 23 a participant would become part of his file? 24 A No, not necessarily. 25 Q What would happen to it? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 55 1 A I don't know. 2 Q If he instructed them to take notes and they 3 took notes, what would they do with the 4 notes? What was the routine pattern and 5 practice in the agency with regard to those 6 notes? 7 A They were not kept in any formal, official 8 file. 9 Q What was done with them? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Kept at the note taker's desk or wherever the 12 note taker just determined to put them? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Were you ever tasked by Mr. Swann to find 15 any notes of a given meeting? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And what did you find? 18 A I maintained a file that had all of the 19 handouts and briefings from meetings, and I 20 would go to that file and get the briefing 21 package. 22 Q And that was part of the administrator's 23 files? 24 A Yes. I want to qualify that. It was files 25 that were kept in the administrator's suite. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 56 1 They are not there any longer. And so when 2 you say "administrator's files," I'm not sure 3 what you mean. You may mean something 4 different. 5 Q Where are they kept now -- 6 A I don't know. 7 Q -- if they're not in a suite? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Doesn't he have his own file room? 10 A When I was there, no. 11 Q To your knowledge, does he now have one? 12 A I do not know for certain. 13 Q Do you have a suspicion? 14 MR. CAYRNES: Objection to any 15 questions about suspicion. 16 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Do you know either 17 directly or indirectly that he has his own 18 file room? 19 MR. CAYRNES: I will object to 20 the lack of foundation, but you can go ahead 21 and go with this one. 22 A Do I know what now? 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) That either directly or 24 indirectly that he has his -- 25 A Currently? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 57 1 Q Yes. 2 A I have no knowledge. 3 Q So then how do you know that they are not in 4 his office now? 5 A Because after I left Washington, I went back 6 up there. I had maintained two file 7 cabinets, and they were emptied out of that 8 room, and I was told that they had been sent 9 to the library. 10 Q And you understood that to be which library? 11 A The GOHS headquarters library, I assumed. 12 Q And who told you that they had been sent 13 there? 14 A The executive assistant who replaced me. 15 Q And what was his or her name? 16 A Jim Davis. 17 Q And is he still the executive assistant? 18 A No. 19 Q Who is? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Do you know how long he was executive 22 assistant? 23 A No, I don't. Less than a year, more than a 24 couple of months. 25 Q Can you tell me why you asked about those Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 58 1 files? Why you asked Mr. Davis about those 2 files? 3 A I'm not sure I asked him about the files. 4 Q What was the reason for inquiring about the 5 status of the contents of those filing 6 cabinets, then? 7 A I asked, "Where did the files go?" And I 8 don't recall whom I asked that of. I was 9 told by whomever, "They were sent to the 10 library." 11 Q And this was in '93? 12 A No. It would be after '93. 13 Q About when? 14 A Sometime in '94. It was after I had left 15 Washington. 16 Q And when did you leave Washington? 17 A October of '93. 18 Q Where did you go when you left Washington? 19 A I returned to the Bobson Space Center and my 20 home. 21 Q In what capacity at Bobson? 22 A I went to work in the Space Station Program 23 office. 24 Q In what capacity? 25 A Contracting officer. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 59 1 Q Were you the principal contracting officer? 2 A No. 3 Q Who was? 4 A Pam Vonnegut. 5 Q You worked for Ms. Vonnegut? 6 A We worked together. 7 Q So how was the labor divided? 8 A Pam would assign work as the principal 9 contracting officer. 10 Q Okay. When she assigned work, how did she 11 divide it generally? Was there a rationale 12 as to how it was divided between you? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Were there other contracting officers? 15 A Yes. 16 Q How many? 17 A I don't recall. 18 Q Did they work on the same level with you and 19 Pam Vonnegut? 20 A We worked in the same office. 21 Q The same level of responsibility as you and 22 Pam Vonnegut? 23 A They were contracting officers. 24 Q Were they -- did they work for you and Pam 25 Vonnegut or -- Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 60 1 A They took their lead from Pam most often. 2 Q So at this point -- this is October of 3 '93 -- this is before the award of the 4 Aerobus letter contract. Is that correct? 5 A I don't recall when that was assigned. 6 Q Were you principally working with Aerobus? 7 A No. 8 Q Who were you working with as contractors? 9 A I don't recall who I worked with directly. I 10 know I dealt with Lustig on a couple of 11 OATES issues, and I spent a great deal of 12 time working on a contract to bring a 13 French space agency astronaut on board. 14 Q On board what? 15 A As a contractor, a consultant. 16 Q For what? 17 A I don't recall what his specific duties were 18 at this time. 19 Q Was it for the Space Station Program, though? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And how long were you in the Space Station 22 Program office? 23 A I was reassigned on January 6th 1994, a very 24 short time. 25 Q To where? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 61 1 A The director's office. 2 Q Who was the director at this point? 3 A Dr. Jennifer Simmons. 4 Q And is that where you are currently? 5 A I am in the director's office. 6 Q Have been continuous since 1994? 7 A I've been in the director's office since 8 January 6th 1994. 9 Q In the same position? 10 A No. 11 Q What positions have you held? Start in '94 12 when you were first assigned. 13 A I was executive assistant to Dr. Simmons. 14 They changed my title sometime, and I don't 15 recall the exact date, and I don't even 16 recall the exact title they changed it to. 17 And then I became the Associate Director of 18 Management later, which is my current 19 position. 20 Q When did you become Associate Director of 21 Management? 22 A I don't recall the specific date. 23 Q Approximately? 24 A I don't recall. 25 Q Is that an SES position? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 62 1 A It was not when I entered it. 2 Q Is it now? 3 A I am an SES. 4 Q At what level? 5 A One. 6 Q And when did you become a Level 1? 7 A The summer of '97, I believe. 8 Q When you first went to the director's office, 9 you were what grade? 10 A I was 15, I believe. 11 Q Were you a 15 when you left Washington? 12 A No. 13 Q What was your grade when you left Washington? 14 A 13. 15 Q And at the Space Station Program's office, 16 you were what grade? 17 A A 13 as I entered it. 18 Q And you left as a -- 19 A I don't believe I had a promotion before I 20 left it. 21 Q Did you go directly from 13 to 15 then? 22 A No. 23 Q Where were you a 14? 24 A In the director's office. 25 Q So in January of '94 when you were Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 63 1 reassigned, you were reassigned as a 2 Grade 14? 3 A No, 13. 4 Q So you were promoted there at that job from 5 13 to 14? 6 A After a period of time, yes. 7 Q Was the Associate Director of Management 8 position existent at the time you became the 9 associate director of management? 10 A It was a new position. 11 Q And you were the first incumbent? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And that's your current position? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And what are your duties? 16 A I have overall responsibilities for managing 17 and coordinating the functions of, for 18 shorthand's sake, the institutional side of 19 the house. 20 Q Which comprises what? Comprises what? 21 A Public Affairs, Human Resources, the Center 22 Operations. 23 Q When you say -- 24 A Procurement, Business, Finance. 25 Q "Center Operations" would be what? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 64 1 A It's familiarly known as roads and commodes. 2 Q Civil engineering type of functions? 3 A It is the logistics functions at the center 4 and facilities. 5 Q Okay. And what else? 6 A What else? 7 Q That's all of your duties, is HRPA and center 8 ops? 9 A No. I also said business administration -- 10 Q Yes. 11 A -- and the budget. 12 Q You work on the program memorandum for the 13 budget? That would be part of your job? 14 A Pardon? 15 Q The program memorandum for the budget would 16 be part of your job? 17 A I'm not certain what a "program memorandum" 18 is. 19 Q Budget request? 20 A I do not work on that per se, no. 21 Q Do you coordinate it? 22 A The CFO's office coordinates it. 23 Q Does the CFO respond principally to you? 24 A No. 25 Q No. You're co-equal? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 65 1 A The CFO works directly for the center 2 director. 3 Q So I'm trying to get in my mind clearly what 4 your budget function is then. Exactly what 5 is it? 6 A The CFO will come to me if they have issues 7 that they need addressing. In my role, I 8 have delegated all functions down to the 9 organizations. 10 Q What kind of functions are we talking about 11 here? 12 A Budget decisions, etcetera. And then they 13 come back up through the organizations to the 14 center director for final decisions. 15 Q So this would be operation and maintenance 16 type budget -- a type of budget? 17 A For the entire center. 18 Q For the entire center? 19 A Yes. 20 Q There would be no program money involved 21 here? 22 A The budget is looked at as a whole, not as 23 pieces of it. Yes, the budget includes 24 program money. 25 Q Congress allocates money for those purposes Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 66 1 and -- 2 A I'm aware of that. 3 Q So there's a distinction between program 4 money and O and M money, less control over 5 program money. Now, would you deal with the 6 program money? 7 MR. CAYRNES: Object to the 8 question. There's too much testimony in 9 that. Where's the question? 10 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Would you deal with the 11 program money and how? 12 A No. 13 Q No? So that's really not part of your 14 responsibilities? 15 A Not in terms of making decisions about how it 16 gets spent. 17 MR. CAYRNES: I'd just like to 18 note for the record -- I'll let you go on if 19 that's what you want -- this case is about an 20 alleged contract -- an alleged breach of 21 contract occurring in 1993. You know, what 22 the witness's duties are today and various 23 things that go on today might be 24 interesting. I don't see the relevance. If 25 you want to go on with it, go on with it, but Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 67 1 we're dragging on a lot of time. 2 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Have you seen the 3 pleadings in this case, copies of the 4 pleadings? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you discussed them with anyone? 7 A I don't know what the pleadings are, so I 8 don't know if I've discussed anything. 9 Q Has anyone told you what the contents of them 10 are? 11 A No, not to my knowledge. 12 Q Have you ever been requested to look for 13 documents concerning this case? 14 A I received this request and the notice of 15 deposition. 16 Q By "this" you're referring to Exhibit 2? 17 A This notice of deposition and Attachment A, 18 and I had received a request from James Marie 19 for my notes regarding the -- what is known 20 as the CEO meeting. 21 Q Do you recall when you received that request 22 from Mr. Marie? 23 A In 1998. 24 Q Do you recall the month or -- 25 A No. I'm not certain when I sent that. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 68 1 Q Go back to Washington. 2 A Uh-huh. 3 Q When you were executive assistant to 4 Mr. Swann, was it any part of your duties to 5 brief him during the day regularly? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you review publications for him and bring 8 them to his attention? 9 A Yes. 10 Q What did you review? 11 A The reading file. 12 Q Which was prepared by whom? 13 A The correspondence office. 14 Q And what was generally included in it? 15 A Letters that had come in. 16 Q Well, with regard to publications 17 specifically. 18 A No. 19 Q To your knowledge -- 20 A I don't recall it. 21 Q To your knowledge, did Mr. Swann have any 22 concern about what industry press was saying? 23 A Yes. 24 Q How did he track that? 25 A I don't know that he tracked it. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 69 1 Q Did you track it? 2 A I did not track what industry was saying. 3 Q Does GOHS have a clipping -- or at that time 4 did GOHS have a clipping service that -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q And was that part of the daily reading file? 7 A No. It was separate. 8 Q Would it go to Mr. Swann every day? 9 A I don't know that it went every day, but I 10 believe it did. 11 Q Would you review it and call matters to his 12 attention? 13 A No. 14 Q Would anybody do that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Who? 17 A Occasionally, Public Affairs did and 18 sometimes Legislative Affairs did. 19 Q Did Program Offices also do that? 20 A I suppose there might be an occasion. 21 Q Can you tell me what publications Public 22 Affairs reviewed, if you know? 23 A I don't know all of them. The clipping 24 service provided clips. 25 Q And that was an internal clipping service? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 70 1 A I don't know that. 2 Q Was it only about space matters or matters 3 touching on GOHS, or was it more general? 4 A It was all space-related. It wasn't, for 5 example, what's happening in Ceylon. 6 Q Unless it involved the Space Program? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And do you recall the publications that they 9 would use? 10 A Some of them. AVIATION WEEK AND SPACE 11 TECHNOLOGY, SPACE NEWS, various large city 12 newspapers. 13 Q WASHINGTON POST, NEW JERSEY TIMES? 14 A Certainly the NEW JERSEY TIMES, the WALL STREET 15 JOURNAL. 16 Q Did they track the Fort newspapers? 17 A I don't recall about the Fort newspapers. 18 I'm not even aware of a Fort newspaper, 19 per se. 20 MR. CAYRNES: By the way, I might 21 just note that we've been going for about an 22 hour and a half, and I just think the witness 23 ought to be advised that if she needs to take 24 a break or is tired, she can. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Of course, you at any time Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 71 1 can take a break. All you have to do is 2 ask. Do you want to take a short break now? 3 A I'd rather keep going right now and complete 4 this. 5 Q Okay. Just let me know when you want one. 6 Now, you've previously testified 7 that, I believe it was, Mandy Greene 8 maintained the calendars? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Who maintained the administrator's notebooks? 11 A What notebooks? 12 Q His personal notebooks that he kept. 13 MR. CAYRNES: Assumes facts not 14 in evidence. 15 A Tell me what the notebook was. 16 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Did he keep personal 17 notes, to your knowledge? 18 A No. 19 Q Never did? 20 A No. I'm not aware of any. 21 Q Never took any. Did he use a Commuter? 22 A No. 23 Q How did he -- how did he know where to go and 24 when to be there? 25 A He had his daily calendar. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 72 1 Q Which was in what form? 2 A It was printed out each morning. 3 Q On an 8 X 11? 4 A I don't remember the size of the paper. It 5 was on a piece of paper, though. 6 Q And that was the calendar that you said you 7 reviewed? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did he maintain a desk calendar personally? 10 A No, not that I recall. 11 Q Or a blotter calendar? 12 A No. 13 Q As he met people, you said he liked to send 14 thank you notes. Did he maintain a card file 15 on the people he met? 16 A He did not. 17 Q How did he know who to send thank you notes 18 to? 19 A When he met with people at a center, for 20 example, and they gave him briefings on 21 technology, activity, we would generally -- I 22 would call back to the center and ask for a 23 list of the people who had provided briefings 24 if I hadn't already gotten that and asked for 25 their address, and we would have Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 73 1 Correspondence Control prepare a thank you 2 note or a response of some sort. 3 Q Who's in charge of Correspondence Control? 4 A Pardon? 5 Q Who was in charge of Correspondence Control? 6 A During what period? 7 Q During this '92-'93 time frame. 8 A At one point there was a woman -- I don't 9 recall her name, Diane something -- who 10 has since retired, and then a woman named 11 Lukeette Pratt took charge of 12 Correspondence Control. 13 Q Would you get copies of the briefings as part 14 of your duties? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And these were the briefings that you said 17 were in the filing cabinet -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- you maintained? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q The calendar that was maintained, was it 22 maintained in a particular format? Was it a 23 word processing document, or was it a 24 Microsoft schedule calendar? 25 A It was a book, a regular calendar appointment Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 74 1 book. 2 Q Okay. And then daily it was extracted? 3 A Mandy Greene, the secretary, would type up 4 the schedule for the day. 5 Q And that would be a word processing 6 document? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Were those maintained chronologically once 9 the schedule for the day was established? 10 Were they -- 11 A The daily, pitched. 12 Q By whom? 13 A Whoever had that little piece of paper. 14 Q So Mandy Greene didn't maintain a 15 historical chronology of them? 16 A No. She maintained the appointment book. 17 Q Aside from the book, there's no other? 18 A Not that I'm aware of. 19 Q Was Mr. Swann, to your knowledge, a computer 20 user? 21 A No, he's not. When I was there, he was not. 22 Q During the '92-'93 time frame? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Did he have one on his desk? 25 A I don't recall. I believe he had one on a Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 75 1 credenza behind his desk, but I never saw him 2 use it. 3 Q That computer then would -- were you on a 4 local area network in the office 5 administrative suite? 6 A I'm not -- I can't attest to that. 7 Q Did you have a computer on your desk? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Was it a network? 10 A Yes. 11 Q With whom? 12 A I don't know. All I know is that I could 13 send e-mail notes. 14 Q And to whom would you send them to? 15 A Whomever I needed to send something to. 16 Q At a center? 17 A Sometimes at centers. 18 Q And was this a desktop computer or a notebook 19 computer? 20 A Desktop. 21 Q And how did you maintain your e-mail records? 22 A Define "maintain." 23 Q If the e-mail related to a particular 24 program, did you save it in a folder 25 electronically or did you print it in hard Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 76 1 copy and put it in the appropriate file? 2 A I didn't file my e-mail. 3 Q At all? 4 A I don't recall. I certainly don't have 5 any -- currently have any e-mail notes at 6 all from that time frame. I never treated 7 the e-mail system as a place for official 8 records. 9 Q So what would you correspond about in the 10 e-mail to centers? 11 A Much of my correspondence to centers involved 12 dealing with my family. 13 Q That would be to Bobson? 14 A Correct. It would be to my family. 15 Q I see. Okay. Personal. Aside from personal 16 e-mail -- 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q -- did you use it for business? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What purpose? What business purpose? 21 A To follow up on an action. 22 Q For -- 23 A Send me the names and addresses of the people 24 who gave briefings. 25 Q Do you draw a distinction between working Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 77 1 documents and official records? 2 A I'm not sure what your definition of a 3 "working document" is, but I consider that 4 official records are things that have to be 5 maintained in the official file. And, yes, I 6 distinguished between things that must be 7 maintained in the official file and things 8 that don't. If the things that don't are 9 classified as working records, yes, I 10 distinguish them. 11 Q That would probably be as good as any. But 12 they would, nevertheless, be official 13 business, the working records would be? 14 A They would be GOHS business, yes. 15 Q GOHS business. 16 A Yes. 17 Q And how do you determine which is which? 18 A Which is official records for the file? 19 Q Correct. 20 A My understanding -- and I believe it still is 21 maintained -- is that nothing on the e-mail 22 is considered official record. That comes 23 out of my Procurement background. 24 Q Whether it's internal or to a contractor? 25 A I don't recall ever sending e-mail to a Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 78 1 contractor; and, yes, that's probably still 2 the case. 3 Q Are you familiar with the e-mail protective 4 order in this case? 5 A No, I'm not. 6 Q No one has told you about it? 7 A I don't know what you're talking about. 8 Q Does the computer system fall into -- at 9 Bobson fall into the roads and commodes 10 function of maintenance of the -- 11 A No. 12 Q What system does it fall into? 13 A We have an information systems directorate. 14 Q And who is in charge of that? 15 A Bob -- Vickie Hogan. 16 Q You know, when was the information center -- 17 information systems directorate established? 18 A I don't recall. It has metamorphosed through 19 several different versions and bosses. 20 Q It was Tom Trindle, I believe your husband, 21 who was one of the principal persons involved 22 in establishing it. Is that correct? 23 A In establishing? 24 Q The information systems directorate, qua, 25 information systems directorate? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 79 1 A No. 2 Q But he was the chief information officer 3 here? 4 A He is currently the CIO at the Bobson Space 5 Center. That is separate from the 6 information systems directorate. 7 Q Oh, it is? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And how is it separate? 10 A The CIO deals with issues of policy. The 11 information system directorate deals with 12 issues of services and implementation issues. 13 Q Functionality of the system? 14 A Correct. 15 Q So the policy decision on maintenance or on 16 electronic mail -- save, destroy, whatever -- 17 would be chief information officer's 18 decision? 19 A I believe that that policy is actually a 20 headquarters' decision. 21 Q As opposed to a Bobson decision? 22 A It's an agency policy. 23 Q Okay. So Bobson follows whatever 24 headquarters says in that regard? 25 A That would be my assumption. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 80 1 Q So my question is, who at Bobson would be 2 familiar with the terms of the protective 3 order? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Any protective order involving 6 non-destruction of electronic mail, who would 7 be responsible? 8 A I do not know. 9 Q But it wouldn't be you? 10 A Absolutely not. I have a written recusal of 11 all matters dealing with information 12 technology. 13 Q You have a computer at your desk now, 14 correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And you have had it throughout the entire 17 period we're talking about from '92 to '93, 18 on up? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q Do you delete your own electronic mail? 21 A I can erase a note. 22 Q Have you done it? 23 A Sure. 24 Q In the '92-'93 time frame? 25 A Sure. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 81 1 Q What criteria did you apply? We're not 2 talking about personal notes. I'm talking 3 about business-type things. 4 A Do I need to save this note. 5 Q And that's the GOHS policy on it? 6 A "Do I need to save this note" is not a GOHS 7 policy. 8 Q Okay. So what is the GOHS policy, the 9 headquarters' policy on deletion, 10 destruction? 11 A I am not familiar with the policy. 12 Q So how does the agency assure that people 13 comply with the information policy? 14 A That's outside my bailiwick. 15 Q In your position as executive assistant to 16 Mr. Swann, you said you reviewed 17 correspondence. Did you review all 18 correspondence that came across his desk? 19 A I can't say that I did. 20 Q Is it fair to say that you probably did? 21 A I reviewed all correspondence that was 22 included in the daily reading file. 23 Q Okay. And that was being prepared by whom? 24 A Correspondence Control. 25 Q Okay. And you also reviewed his calendar? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 82 1 A Yes. 2 Q So would it be fair to say that you had a 3 good idea of what the trends were in the 4 correspondence, the issues he was looking at? 5 A Not necessarily. 6 Q Would he be able to receive something without 7 you being aware of it? 8 A Yes. 9 Q By what means? 10 A Something might be hand-carried in, and 11 similarly something might come in that was 12 marked "Personal and Confidential." He also 13 received documents that were secret, and I 14 don't have a secret clearance. 15 Q If things were hand-carried, they would be 16 given to whom when they came in? 17 A I wouldn't know if it was hand-carried. 18 Q There was no instruction to hand them to you? 19 A No. 20 Q Or to Ms. Anderson? 21 A No. 22 Q Or her successor as chief of staff? 23 A I'm not aware of any instruction. 24 Q In other words, there's no gatekeeper, no 25 director to Mr. Swann? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 83 1 A If someone walked in and had a private 2 meeting with Mr. Swann and handed him a 3 piece of correspondence, I would have no 4 knowledge of it. 5 Q If a messenger came in with a document and 6 said, "I have a document for Mr. Swann," 7 would it go to whom? 8 A If it was a piece of mail, it would come in 9 through the correspondence system; otherwise, 10 it would go in to Mr. Swann. 11 Q Directly? 12 A I don't recall. 13 Q Nobody would review it? 14 A I don't recall a specific incidence. I'm not 15 sure that that ever even happened, quite 16 frankly. 17 Q During '92, '93, were you familiar with the 18 Freedom Program, Space Station Program? 19 A I know the Freedom Program existed. I can't 20 say that I was terribly familiar with it. 21 Q Did you know who the contractors were? 22 A I knew that there were a lot of Aerospace 23 contractors. 24 Q Did you know what Alexandria was? 25 A I knew that there was a facility out at Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 84 1 Alexandria. 2 Q Do you know what its purpose was? 3 A They were working on the Space Station 4 Freedom Program. 5 Q Do you know who Bob Hewitt is? 6 A I had heard the name. 7 Q Did you know what the present contractual 8 arrangement was for that program at that 9 time? 10 A No. 11 Q Now you're a Procurement person -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- in an executive job with the largest 14 program in the agency at the time, and you 15 didn't know how it was structured. Is that 16 your testimony? 17 MR. CAYRNES: Object to the -- 18 what's the question? 19 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Is that your testimony, 20 that you didn't know how it was structured? 21 A I did not know the specific structure of all 22 the contracts involving Space Station 23 Freedom. 24 Q Did you know the general structure? 25 A In a very, very broad sense perhaps. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 85 1 Q Did you know who the four prime contractors 2 were? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know anything about the present Space 5 Station Program's arrangement? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you know how in '92-'93 time frame the 8 Space Station Program ranked in Mr. Swann's 9 priorities as administrator? 10 A He did not tell me. 11 Q From the correspondence could you tell? 12 MR. CAYRNES: You're asking for 13 an opinion? 14 Q (By Mr. Palmer) I'm asking if from the 15 correspondence you can tell that there was a 16 lot of activity involving the Space Station? 17 MR. CAYRNES: That's a different 18 question. 19 A I don't recall how much correspondence was 20 related to Space Station, and that might not 21 correctly indicate the interest in the 22 program. 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) By the administrator? 24 A Correct. 25 Q Do you know what, during this time frame, Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 86 1 portion of the GOHS budget the Space Station 2 represented? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you recall if it was major? 5 A I said I did not recall. 6 Q You don't even know if it was major? 7 A It was certainly a big part of the GOHS 8 budget. 9 Q Since this case was filed over the last, I 10 guess -- well, let's say in the last six 11 years, have you discussed it with Mr. Swann? 12 MR. CAYRNES: Object to that 13 question as ambiguous. Can you rephrase 14 that? 15 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Have you discussed this 16 case with Mr. Swann any time over the last 17 six years? 18 A No. 19 Q Discussed it with Mr. Abbey? 20 MR. CAYRNES: I object to your 21 referring to "this case" in connection with 22 the last six years because this case was not 23 filed six years ago. It was filed about a 24 year ago. There was no case. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Since May of 1997, have Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 87 1 you discussed this case with Mr. Swann? 2 A No. 3 Q Mr. Abbey? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What was that discussion? 6 A I said, "Mr. Abbey, I've been called to give 7 a deposition." 8 Q Was that the first time you discussed it with 9 him? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Had he ever discussed it with you prior to 12 that? 13 A No. 14 Q And what did he say? 15 MR. CAYRNES: The answer to the 16 question was "no," and you're asking what did 17 he say? 18 MR. PALMER: Well, she told him 19 that she had been called for a deposition. 20 Q (By Mr. Palmer) What did he say? 21 A He said, "Oh." 22 Q And that was all? 23 A He may have said -- made -- I believe I said, 24 "I have talked to Mr. Cayrnes about it, 25 and he has told me to be forthright and Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 88 1 honest." 2 Q Did you talk to any other lawyers about it 3 other than Mr. Cayrnes? 4 A Mr. Cooley. 5 Q Any others? 6 A No. 7 Q Not Mr. Forbes? 8 A No. I've never talked to him. 9 Q Mr. Marie? 10 A Never talked to him about this case. 11 Q Mr. Grammercy? 12 A No. 13 Q What about Mr. Minuet? Have you talked to 14 him about this case? 15 A No. 16 Q Have you talked to anyone at Aerobus about 17 this case? 18 A No. 19 Q Or to former Rhender? 20 A No. 21 Q Or Merkel? 22 A Let's make it short. I've told you 23 everything I've talked about. 24 Q Have you read any newspaper articles or 25 magazine articles about this case? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 89 1 A No. 2 Q When I'm saying talked to these people, I 3 include in that exchange of faxes, e-mail, or 4 any other means of communication. Does your 5 answer include those means of communication 6 as well? 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. What -- 9 A I sent an e-mail to a gentleman this morning 10 saying: "Sorry I haven't gotten back to 11 you. I won't be able to meet with you 12 today. I have to go give a deposition." And 13 that -- 14 Q To none of th