1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS 2 3 CHENEDY ADAMS : CORPORATION, : 4 : Plaintiff, : 5 : VS. : No. 07-845C 6 : (Judge Hamilton) THE UNITED STATES, : 7 : Defendant. : 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 DEPOSITION OF JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA 15 VOLUME I 16 MAY 12, 1998 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 2 1 I N D E X 2 3 THE WITNESS: JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA 4 VOLUME I 5 6 EXAMINATION: PAGE 7 8 By Mr. Palmer ....................... 6 9 10 TRINDLE EXHIBITS: 11 12 Exhibit No. 2 ....................... 6 Exhibit No. 3 ....................... 98 13 Exhibit No. 4 ....................... 101 Exhibit No. 5 ....................... 101 14 Exhibit No. 6 ....................... 104 Exhibit No. 7 ....................... 106 15 Exhibit No. 8 ....................... 108 Exhibit No. 9 ....................... 111 16 Exhibit No. 10 ...................... 112 Exhibit No. 11 ...................... 114 17 Exhibit No. 12 ...................... 117 Exhibit No. 13 ...................... 120 18 Exhibit No. 14 ...................... 122 Exhibit No. 15 ...................... 122 19 Exhibit No. 16 ...................... 124 Exhibit No. 17 ...................... 127 20 Exhibit No. 18 ...................... 128 Exhibit No. 19 ...................... 130 21 Exhibit No. 20 ...................... 132 Exhibit No. 21 ...................... 133 22 Exhibit No. 22 ...................... 136 Exhibit No. 23 ...................... 137 23 Exhibit No. 24 ...................... 137 Exhibit No. 25 ...................... 146 24 Exhibit No. 26 ...................... 147 Exhibit No. 27 ...................... 152 25 Exhibit No. 28 ...................... 152 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 3 1 I N D E X 2 (Continued) 3 TRINDLE EXHIBITS (Continued) 4 5 Exhibit No. 29 ...................... 158 Exhibit No. 30 ...................... 160 6 Exhibit No. 31 ...................... 161 Exhibit No. 32 ...................... 163 7 Exhibit No. 33 ...................... 164 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF CHENEDY ADAMS 4 CORPORATION: 5 Mr. J. Robert Palmer 6 Mr. J. Jason Chen Keith & Dorset 7 2300 M Street, S.E., Suite 600 Washington, D.C. 20037 8 9 ALSO PRESENT: 10 Mr. Winward C. Quincy Mr. Jason A. Dickasulo 11 Mr. George E. Beauregard 12 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT THE UNITED STATES: 14 15 Mr. Steven Cayrnes Commercial Litigation Branch, Civil 16 Division United States Department of Justice 17 1100 L Street, S.E., 7th Floor Washington, D.C. 20530 18 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 Mr. Jason G. Cooley 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 5 1 The oral deposition of JENNIFER 2 CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA, was taken on May 12, 3 1998, beginning at 10:15 a.m., in the offices 4 of Candid Court Reporters, 2777 Allen 5 Boulevard, 5th Floor, Durham, Ford County, 6 Wyoming, before Nina S. Tyler, a Certified 7 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of 8 Wyoming, pursuant to Notice, the United States 9 Court of Federal Claims Rules, and the 10 following stipulation of counsel for the 11 respective parties that: 12 IT WAS STIPULATED AND/OR AGREED 13 that the deposition is to be signed by the 14 witness before any Notary Public or officer 15 authorized to administer oaths. 16 17 _ _ _ _ _ 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 6 1 JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA, 2 called as a witness and having been first 3 duly sworn, testified as follows: 4 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. PALMER: 7 Q Good morning, Ms. Trindle. Thank you for 8 coming today. 9 I'll now show you a document and 10 ask if you've seen this before. 11 MR. PALMER: The court reporter 12 will please mark it as Exhibit 2. 13 (Trindle Exhibit No. 2 14 marked for identification) 15 A This looks like the document that I received 16 by fax. 17 Q Including the attachment? 18 A Yes, although I would have to have the 19 original that I received to compare them 20 directly. 21 Q Do you have it with you? 22 A Excuse me? 23 Q Do you have it with you? 24 A No. 25 Q No. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 7 1 MR. PALMER: Do you have it, 2 Mr. Cayrnes? 3 MR. CAYRNES: I'm not sure I have 4 the one that Ms. Trindle received because she 5 probably received it from James Maris. I'm 6 confident that it's the same thing, but I'd 7 have to be looking at it to know that. 8 MR. PALMER: But you told me you 9 sent her the same thing he sent you. 10 MR. CAYRNES: No. I sent James 11 Maris -- actually, you sent James Maris a 12 copy. 13 MR. PALMER: Correct. 14 MR. CAYRNES: And when -- one 15 moment. 16 MR. PALMER: If there are any 17 differences -- 18 A This is what I received. 19 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Okay. Take a quick moment 20 and look at it and see if this is the same. 21 A This is not easy. I do not have my glasses. 22 It's been marked up. 23 Q The difference being that it's today's date 24 instead of the 12th, correct? 25 A Uh-huh, the 7th. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 8 1 Q Instead of the 7th, correct. 2 A They look to be the same. 3 Q Okay. Did you bring any documents today? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you review any documents before you came 6 here today? 7 A The documents I reviewed to see if they met 8 the requirements of that have been provided. 9 Q By whom? 10 A I gave them to Jay Cooley. 11 Q And what were they? 12 A I do not recall specifically other than there 13 was a briefing by Georgine O辿enry and there 14 were some personnel opportunity documents. 15 Q What are those? 16 A Hiring. 17 Q Who gets copies of those documents? 18 MR. COOLEY: Hopefully you 19 already have. 20 MR. CAYRNES: I want to note for 21 the record that there is somewhat of a lack 22 of clarity in terms of the notice insofar as 23 it identifies documents which appear to be 24 government documents as opposed to the 25 witness's own personal papers. As far as Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 9 1 we're aware, those documents have already 2 been produced, the documents that fit those 3 descriptions. I also mentioned to 4 Mr. Chen in a telephone conversation 5 that to the extent that there may be any 6 government documents within the scope of this 7 notice that were not previously produced -- 8 again, I don't know; I don't think there 9 are -- but to the extent that there might be, 10 the government would be entitled to 30 days 11 to respond under Rule 34. And request for 12 documents in a deposition notice, if it's 13 addressed to the government, would still be 14 subject to that Rule 34. To the extent that 15 it's not addressed to the government but to 16 the witness personally, it doesn't say one 17 way or the other which it is. I think the 18 understanding of the witness was these are 19 basically -- 20 MR. PALMER: I think she can 21 explain her own understanding. 22 MR. CAYRNES: All right. I won't 23 say what her understanding is. I can tell 24 you what the government's understanding was 25 in terms of addressing this, was that insofar Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 10 1 as this was looking for government documents, 2 there was no need to produce any documents in 3 response to this at this time for both of the 4 reasons that I gave. 5 MR. PALMER: Okay. But you're 6 aware there are a number of deficiencies in 7 the production of the government at this 8 point -- 9 MR. CAYRNES: That's a 10 contention. 11 MR. PALMER: -- some of which 12 have been identified. And during the process 13 of identifying, we'll address those. I'm 14 just interested in what she reviewed at this 15 particular point, not in addressing the 16 deficiencies in the government's production. 17 We'll address that at a given place and time 18 when that occurs, but right now I'm only 19 interested in what she saw. 20 A I also provided to James Maris my notes from 21 a meeting that occurred in Washington, which 22 you-all have copies of those. 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Those are handwritten 24 notes or typed? 25 A Typed. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 11 1 Q Okay. We'll get to that. You're referring 2 to the July 22nd meeting? 3 A Correct. 4 Q First of all, let's go back. I believe we 5 have your full name on the record. Would you 6 tell me what your additional background is, 7 please? 8 A I attended Raoul F. Dallas State Wyoming; 9 Raoul F. Dallas State Teacher's College; I 10 attended San Juan Community College; and I 11 also attended the University of Durham Clear 12 Lake. I have a degree in accounting, a 13 bachelor of science degree, and I'm a CPA. 14 Q And have you worked for any -- what was your 15 first job out of college, first full-time 16 job? I'm not talking about college-type 17 jobs. 18 A GOHS. 19 Q At GOHS. What was that position? 20 A I was a contract specialist. 21 Q Here at Bobson? 22 A Correct. 23 Q How long were you in that position? 24 A From 1987 as a co-op student until 25 approximately May of 1992. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 12 1 Q Did you have a warrant? 2 A I did not until 1993. 3 Q And that was -- so you were essentially 4 without warrant until May of '92. In May of 5 '92? 6 A No. I said until October or November of '93, 7 warrant. 8 Q So you got your warrant in October or 9 November of '93 is what you're telling me? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. So the contract specialist from 12 1987 -- you're a co-op student -- to May of 13 '92, you had no warrant? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And you were here at Bobson? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Now, in May of '92, where did you go? 18 A Washington, D.C. 19 Q In what capacity? 20 A As a detailee working in the Procurement 21 area. 22 Q Who did you work for? 23 A Helene Anderson. 24 Q Do you know how long she had been there at 25 the time you were detailed? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 13 1 A No, I don't recall. 2 Q What was her position? 3 A I don't recall when I went there. She became 4 the chief of staff. 5 Q To whom? 6 A Dan Swann. 7 Q The administrator? 8 A Of GOHS. 9 Q And did you get a new boss at that point, or 10 did you go with her? 11 A I don't understand your question. 12 Q Did you go on to her staff, on to Swann's 13 staff at that point? 14 A I worked for Helene Anderson when she was the 15 chief of staff for a brief period of time. 16 Q And how long was that? 17 A I don't recall specifically. 18 Q Approximately? 19 A I don't recall specifically. At some point 20 between when I first started working there 21 and prior to February of '93, I became the 22 assistant to the acting deputy director, Luke 23 Tomison. It may not be his correct title. 24 It may be acting associate deputy -- 25 Q Director? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 14 1 A I'm not certain of the title. 2 Q What was his position? 3 A At that time he held the position that Tom 4 O誰eil currently holds. 5 Q And Ms. Anderson remained the chief of staff? 6 A I don't recall. I believe so for some 7 period, yes. 8 Q And then how long were you the assistant to 9 the acting deputy director, to Tomison? 10 A I don't recall the number of months, but it 11 was until approximately February of '93. 12 Q Why have you -- I thought you said you worked 13 for Helene Anderson until approximately 14 February of '93. 15 A I said that sometime between the period of 16 May of '92 and February of '93 I stopped 17 working for Helene Anderson and became the 18 assistant to Luke Tomison. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And I don't recall the specific date. 21 Q Do you recall how many months you were in 22 each position? 23 A No, I don't. 24 Q Was one longer than the other? 25 A I don't recall. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 15 1 Q February of '93, what did you do? 2 A Approximately February I became the executive 3 assistant to Dan Swann. 4 Q Let's go back to when you worked for Helene 5 Anderson. This was in Procurement, I believe 6 you said, correct? 7 A (Witness nods head) 8 Q What were your duties? 9 A Initially, I was brought out there to relieve 10 a backlog of Procurement reforms. 11 Specifically, they had asked me to review the 12 computer system. I never did that; rather, 13 we ended up reviewing the overall structure 14 and organization of GOHS as a whole. 15 Q Just Procurement or the whole -- the 16 Procurement or the whole of GOHS? 17 A The whole of GOHS. 18 Q That would be the centers, everything? 19 A We were conducting, in essence, what was a 20 zero-based review. 21 Q Organizational? 22 A Not just organizations, but the work itself 23 and work assignments. 24 Q For example? 25 MR. CAYRNES: The question is a Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 16 1 little unclear. 2 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Give me an example. 3 MR. CAYRNES: Well, it's still 4 unclear. 5 MR. PALMER: An example of what 6 she's talking about? She knows what she's 7 talking about. I don't know what's not clear 8 except it's not clear to me. 9 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Give me an example of what 10 kind of work review you're talking about. 11 A There were a series of red and blue teams 12 that were reviewing work across GOHS. They 13 prepared reports dealing with what was going 14 on in particular areas, whether or not it was 15 Aeronautics or Aerospace or the SEO-IYS 16 Program, and I typed up a lot of those 17 reports. 18 Q I assume you were acting professionally, not 19 merely as a typist. Is that correct? 20 A To some extent, yes. 21 Q Well, what were your professional 22 responsibilities in this review, overall 23 structure? 24 A I can't provide a specific example. 25 Q Were you being used as a CPA? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 17 1 A Not in the classic sense of financial or tax 2 accounting. 3 Q What did you do besides type the reports? 4 A I attended meetings, reviewed input. I did a 5 lot of correspondence control. 6 Q Okay. 7 A Checked calendars. 8 Q Whose meetings did you review or did you 9 attend? 10 A Staff meetings under Helene Anderson. 11 Q That would be Helene Anderson's staff 12 meetings? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Any others? 15 A Meetings with Luke Tomison. 16 Q Any particular subject matter on any of 17 these? 18 A Many of them were general staff meetings; 19 some were meetings with people, employees or 20 contractors. 21 Q On any particular issues? 22 A A variety of issues. 23 Q Programs? 24 A Some. 25 Q What programs? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 18 1 A Aeronautics, for example. 2 Q Aeronautics and shuttle? 3 A Aeronautics is not shuttle. 4 Q Aeronautics is what then? 5 A Wind tunnels, airplanes, not space vehicles. 6 Q No Aeronautics on the shuttle? 7 MR. CAYRNES: Is that a 8 question? 9 Q (By Mr. Palmer) It's no Aeronautics on the 10 shuttle? 11 A There are certainly, as you well know, 12 aerodynamics involved in the shuttle. GOHS 13 has divided itself up into both Aeronautics 14 and Aerospace. 15 Q And the shuttle does not fall into 16 Aeronautics? 17 A Correct. 18 Q It falls under Space? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So even though the shuttle flies in the 21 atmosphere, it would be part of the Space 22 Division at GOHS? 23 A The Aeronautics and Aerospace are separate. 24 Ship is considered Aerospace, Space 25 Flight. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 19 1 Q Okay. So you reviewed that -- that was one 2 of the programs that you were reviewing -- 3 MR. CAYRNES: Was that -- 4 Q (By Mr. Palmer) One of the structures of 5 the Ship Program? 6 A I would not classify it as reviewing. I did 7 not perform a review. I'm not technical. 8 Q The structure of -- the division that you 9 just described between Aerospace and 10 Aeronautics would be the structure -- the 11 type of structural division that you would be 12 reviewing in your duties or not? 13 A I've lost your train of thought. 14 Q You just described a division of GOHS. Even 15 though the shuttle looks like an airplane and 16 performs like an airplane and certain aspects 17 of its missions -- 18 A We did not discuss those in Aeronautics 19 meetings. 20 Q Did you discuss those in Aerospace meetings? 21 A If there were Aerospace meetings, the shuttle 22 would probably have been involved. 23 Q So that's part -- that is attributable to the 24 GOHS structure, correct, that division? 25 A Yes. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 20 1 Q You testified that you reviewed the overall 2 structure of GOHS? 3 A I would not testify to that. 4 Q You did not review the -- 5 A I did not review personally. I am not 6 technical. 7 Q So what did you mean when you said you 8 reviewed the overall structure of all of 9 GOHS? 10 A I reviewed meetings where presentations were 11 made on the overall structure of how we did 12 the work, where we could change emphasis or 13 focus. 14 Q In order to do what? 15 A In order to meet budget requirements. 16 Q With an emphasis on preparing the next budget 17 or the current budget? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Was it both? 20 A There was probably a degree of both. 21 Q What was your purpose in those meetings then 22 as a non-technical person? 23 A It was a developmental position for me. 24 Q How would it develop you? In Procurement? 25 Were you a Procurement series civil servant Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 21 1 at this point still? 2 A Yes. 3 Q At approximately what grade? 4 A GS-08. 5 Q And it was to develop you to what? 6 A Understand more fully the scope of GOHS's 7 work. 8 Q And the career path that this development 9 would take you where? 10 A I did not know. 11 Q Who detailed you? 12 A Bobson Space Center. 13 Q Was it an established program or an 14 individual detail? 15 A Individual detail. 16 Q Who detailed you? 17 A I don't understand your question. 18 Q Who by name sent you to Washington? 19 A Gene Demaun. 20 Q And that was the director of human resources 21 at Bobson? 22 A No. 23 Q That's your boss? 24 A Indirectly. 25 Q Who recommended you for this? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 22 1 A Antoinette Rice. 2 Q How did you know Antoinette Rice? 3 A She had been my boss. 4 Q Here at Bobson? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Was she working in a Procurement capacity at 7 that point? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What was that? 10 A At the time -- at what time? 11 Q At the time she detailed you or before -- the 12 time she was your boss. 13 A At the time she was my boss, she was working 14 in a Procurement capacity. 15 Q And what was that capacity? 16 A She was a branch chief. She later became a 17 division chief, so she was my boss up the 18 chain. 19 Q And she knew your work, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So she recommended you to go to Washington to 22 this job with Feders Group? 23 A Correct. 24 Q How long did you work for Antoinette? 25 A I started working for her full-time in 1989, Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 23 1 and I do not recall when she left the Bobson 2 Space Center or I no longer worked for her. 3 Q And so it was from 1989 until she left? 4 A As branch chief? 5 Q Until she left Bobson, you worked for her? 6 A I worked for her when she was the branch 7 chief of the branch I was within. 8 Q And put a time frame around that for me. 9 It's 1989 to when? 10 A I don't know when she became the division 11 chief, and neither do I recall when she left 12 the Bobson Space Center. 13 Q But you worked for her either directly or 14 indirectly until she left Bobson? 15 A Correct. 16 Q Okay. With respect to these meetings that 17 you attended in this developmental mode, what 18 were your duties in attending them? 19 A Listen, observe. 20 Q Did you take notes? 21 A Sometimes. 22 Q Were you required to take notes ever? 23 A On occasion. 24 Q Was there a specific form that these notes 25 had to be in? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 24 1 A No. 2 Q What did you do with them when you took them? 3 A Put them in my desk. 4 Q They never became part of the file, permanent 5 file? 6 A No. 7 Q Now, you also indicated that you reviewed 8 input. What are you talking about? What 9 kind of input are you talking about? 10 A I don't recall the context of when I said 11 that. Could you elaborate? 12 Q You said that your duties included meetings, 13 reviewed and corrected Correspondence Control 14 calendars. What kind of input? 15 A If people provided reports, I may have read 16 them, for example. 17 Q And for what purpose? 18 A Sometimes for editing. 19 Q So they weren't final reports? 20 A Some were, some weren't. They may have been. 21 Q And would you ever summarize them for Helene 22 Anderson? 23 A No. 24 Q So what would you do with them? 25 A Often return them, sometimes throw them Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 25 1 away. It depended on the nature of the 2 report. 3 Q With comments? 4 MR. CAYRNES: Do you want to make 5 a full sentence on that question? It's not 6 clear the way it's stated. 7 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Returned with comments or 8 without? 9 A I don't recall returning items to Helene 10 Anderson with comments. 11 Q Did you receive the reports from Helene 12 Anderson? 13 A Your question is very vague to me. 14 Q These reports that you were reviewing -- it's 15 because you haven't been real clear on your 16 duties. If you can clarify your duties, 17 perhaps it would help a little bit. These 18 reports that you received as part of your 19 duties, from whom did you receive them or 20 what office or entity? 21 A There are reports that were prepared by 22 different organizations, and sometimes there 23 were briefings that were given, along with a 24 set of charts. So it would be from -- on 25 occasion, it would be from whoever was Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 26 1 providing the briefing. I would have their 2 briefing charts. There was a daily 3 correspondence file that contained a lot of 4 reports and briefings. With regard to the 5 red and blue teams, those were prepared and 6 sent to Luke Tomison, who gave them to me to 7 review for editing as well as reformatting. 8 Q And these reports would be reformatted or 9 edited for submission to someone else or some 10 other organization? 11 A Yes. The ones -- for example, the red and 12 blue team reports. 13 Q And where would they be going, the red and 14 blue team reports? 15 A I don't recall where they went. Eventually, 16 a report -- a final report -- that is, not 17 draft -- was prepared that summarized the 18 results of the red and blue team reviews. 19 Q And this was always part of Helene Anderson's 20 staff? 21 A And Luke Tomison. 22 Q And Luke Tomison's staff. Did he work for 23 her? 24 A No. 25 Q These were two separate things? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 27 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you did correspondence control in both 3 capacities as well? 4 A No. 5 Q Only in which one? 6 A Helene Anderson. 7 Q And what was Correspondence Control? 8 A Correspondence Control is the organization 9 that handles all incoming correspondence 10 addressed to the administrator's office and 11 distributes it and files it. 12 Q Do you review it? 13 A Pardon? 14 Q Did you review it as well? 15 A Review it? Define "it." 16 Q Correspondence. 17 A I read it. 18 Q Did you segregate it in any way according to 19 subject matter or prioritize it? 20 A That was not my job, no. 21 Q What did you do with it? 22 A It -- 23 Q Did you catalog it? 24 A It depended. If it was, for example, a 25 congratulations letter to Mr. Swann, one of Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 28 1 the tasks that I did was to provide a 2 response. Often if it was something else, 3 for example, a letter on Aeronautics, I 4 simply read it. 5 Q And then what would you do with it? 6 A Forward the file. 7 Q To whom? 8 A It was forwarded -- circulated throughout the 9 office. 10 Q And it would be circulated next to whom? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q After you saw it, where would you send it? 13 A I would put it in my out basket, and the 14 secretary would forward it. 15 Q Was it a part of your job to know where it 16 went? 17 A No. 18 Q None whatsoever? Now calendars, what did you 19 do? 20 A We had morning meetings where we reviewed the 21 calendar of the day -- who was doing what, 22 who was going where -- to ensure that we had, 23 for example, a driver for a trip to the Fort. 24 Q Would you do any direct scheduling of Helene 25 Anderson? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 29 1 A No. 2 Q Who did that? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q Who did the administrative scheduling? 5 A During what time frame? 6 Q This time frame, '92. 7 A I don't know. I did not work for him at the 8 time. 9 Q But Helene Anderson did, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q She was the executive assistant, you said? 12 A No. 13 Q What did you say? 14 A Chief of staff. 15 Q Chief of staff. I'm sorry. So your 16 maintenance of calendars included scheduling 17 of various -- 18 A I did not maintain calendars. 19 Q You reviewed calendars? 20 A (Witness nods head) 21 Q For what purpose? For scheduling services, 22 making sure that services were -- 23 A Ensuring there weren't conflicts as well. 24 Q And if there were conflicts, what did you do? 25 A Resolve the conflict. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 30 1 Q And you did this for both Tomison and for 2 Anderson or only for Anderson? 3 A Only Anderson during that time frame. 4 Q What were your duties with Mr. Tomison? 5 A Accompanied him to meetings. 6 Q And for what purpose? 7 A If he wanted me to tend to any issues, he 8 would ask me to perform a specific task. 9 Q Were these local to the Washington area, the 10 meetings? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Out of town as well? 13 A No. 14 Q Internal meetings only or also others? 15 A I only recall internal meetings. 16 Q And this was until around February of '93, 17 correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q At which point you became executive assistant 20 to the administrator? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What did your job description say, executive 23 assistant to the administrator? 24 A I don't recall. 25 Q How did it differ from being chief of staff? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 31 1 A I was never the chief of staff. I don't know 2 the difference. 3 Q Are you familiar with Helene Anderson's job? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did your job as executive assistant differ 6 from that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q How did it differ? 9 A Helene Anderson was in the position of making 10 decisions; I was not. 11 Q Making decisions about what? 12 A Personnel issues, policy issues. 13 Q You made no decisions as an executive 14 assistant at all? 15 A Not with respect to personnel or policy. 16 Q With respect to what could you make a 17 decision as executive assistant? 18 A That's too broad a question to answer. 19 Q Did you have daily contact with Mr. Swann? 20 A In? 21 Q In your job as executive assistant? 22 A When he was in town, yes. 23 Q Did you ever travel with him? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When you traveled, did you have daily contact Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 32 1 with him on the trips? 2 A Yes. 3 Q All right. Would you describe for me what 4 you did first thing in the morning when you 5 came in when you were in town as executive 6 assistant? What would you do for Mr. Swann 7 first thing in the morning? 8 A Reviewed the schedule for the day. 9 Q His schedule? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. Then what? 12 A Assisted him as necessary. 13 Q He would just call on you? 14 A No. 15 Q You said "no"? 16 A Correct. 17 Q He would not call on you? 18 A No. You asked if he would just call on me. 19 Q Oh, and you said -- he would just call on you 20 when he needed you? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. How would you interact with him? 23 A If he were going to a meeting, I would 24 accompany him to a meeting, not all meetings. 25 Q How would you know that you were to go or not Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 33 1 to go? 2 A Sometimes he would tell me he wanted me 3 there; sometimes he would tell me he didn't 4 want me there. 5 Q Would there be an indication on the schedule? 6 A No. 7 Q Who prepared the schedule? 8 A The secretary. 9 Q Mr. Swann's secretary -- 10 A Yes. 11 Q -- or yours? 12 A Mr. Swann's secretary. 13 Q Okay. When you would review it, what were 14 you reviewing it for? 15 A Where he was going, what he was going to be 16 doing. 17 Q Okay. Would you inquire as to what he wanted 18 you to do with respect to any items you saw 19 on the schedule? 20 A Sometimes. 21 Q Okay. Give me an example of something that 22 caused you to inquire? 23 A If he had a Fort visit, I would say, "Do you 24 want me to go with you?" 25 Q Okay. Otherwise, you would not go? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 34 1 A Otherwise? 2 Q You would not go? 3 A If he told me no, I would not go. 4 Q Did you coordinate staff work for him for any 5 of these visits to the Fort? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you coordinate staff work for him for any 8 meetings he attended? 9 A I don't understand what your definition of 10 "coordinate staff work" is. 11 Q You're a staffer, correct? 12 A Pardon? 13 Q At this point you're a staffer? You're on 14 his staff? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q That's what an executive assistant is, isn't 17 it? 18 A We may have differing opinions on what the 19 definition of a "staffer" is. 20 Q Give me yours. We'll work with that. 21 MR. CAYRNES: Bill, it's your 22 term, you know. 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Give me what you 24 understand "staff work" to mean. 25 A I can't answer that. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 35 1 MR. CAYRNES: If the witness 2 hasn't used a term, you can't assume that she 3 even has a definition. It's not her 4 terminology. 5 MR. PALMER: She speaks French. 6 She's been in a fairly high level in the 7 government. We all have been in the 8 government. That's a fine distinction. It 9 doesn't make any difference. She's aware 10 that every executive does not do everything. 11 He has a staff that accomplishes it. 12 MR. CAYRNES: That's right, but 13 that's not what the question is. 14 Q (By Mr. Palmer) The question is, did you 15 coordinate the accomplishment of that work by 16 his staff? 17 A I cannot answer that with a "yes" or a "no." 18 Q Well, we'll take it one step at a time then. 19 Let's assume that there is an Aeronautics 20 issue -- a hypothetical now, not real -- and 21 it has to be worked in a bureaucratic sense 22 for the Fort. Let's say Challenger -- that's 23 not Aeronautics; let's say Aerospace -- 24 because the Challenger blew up. That's a 25 classic issue of something that has to be Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 36 1 worked. Clearly, it is going to be staff 2 involvement; administrative staff is going to 3 be involved. Who would coordinate the staff? 4 MR. CAYRNES: Objection; the 5 question is vague as to the word "worked." 6 That's a certain kind of a jargon that 7 doesn't add to the clarity and precision of 8 the testimony. 9 MR. PALMER: Does she understand 10 the question? 11 MR. CAYRNES: It doesn't matter 12 whether she understands it or not. The 13 transcript is going to contain something that 14 is not going to be clear if you use jargon 15 and assume that the witness understands it 16 and understands it the same way you do or the 17 same way anybody who reads it would 18 understand it. 19 MR. PALMER: We can be here the 20 rest of the week, Mr. Cayrnes. 21 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Do you understand the 22 question? 23 A Let me answer in what I think you're trying 24 to get at. Did I go round up answers on this 25 Aeronautics issue? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 37 1 Q No. I said who coordinated the effort to 2 develop the administrator's testimony for the 3 Fort? 4 A The Legislative Affairs office coordinated 5 all testimony for Mr. Swann on the Fort. 6 Q Okay. Let's say we had something that was 7 not Fort involvement. He would be speaking 8 at a civic organization, for example, and it 9 would require someone to draw together 10 resources from around GOHS. Would that be 11 something that you would do? 12 A If it dealt with a Public Affairs issue, for 13 example, speaking at a civic event, Public 14 Affairs generally handled it. To the extent 15 of my involvement with staff work, I might 16 assure that he had his speech in hand, that 17 he had a presentation item in hand. 18 Q Who would send a task to the appropriate 19 office such as Public Affairs or Legislative? 20 A Sometimes I did. More frequently it was the 21 administrator speaking with the associate 22 administrators. 23 Q In his staff meetings? Would he be speaking 24 to them in his staff meetings when these jobs 25 would be handed out? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 38 1 A No, not generally. 2 Q It would be a one-on-one type of thing if he 3 had called them or directed you to call them? 4 A You're giving me a hypothetical that I can't 5 agree to. 6 Q Would you ever call them and say, "The 7 administrator wants you to take care of this 8 piece of business"? 9 A Occasionally. 10 Q And that would be either at his request or 11 self-initiated on those occasions you did it? 12 A Probably a little bit of both. 13 Q Who took care of Mr. Swann's travel 14 arrangements when you were executive 15 assistant? 16 A His secretary. 17 Q Did he or she also take care of yours as 18 well? 19 A I don't recall who took care of my travel 20 arrangements. 21 Q You coordinated it, though, or did someone 22 coordinate it? 23 A Yes. One of the secretaries in the suite 24 did. 25 Q And did you have a secretary? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 39 1 A No. 2 Q What did you do for secretarial assistance? 3 A I used the other principals -- I used the 4 principals' secretaries. 5 Q By "principals," who do you mean? 6 A Mr. Swann, Helene Anderson, Mr. Tomison. 7 Q Would that depend on for whom you were 8 performing a particular task? 9 A I don't recall. 10 Q Who made appointments for the administrator? 11 A A variety of people. 12 Q Was there one central appointment book? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Who kept it? 15 A Mr. Swann's secretary. 16 Q And do you recall who that was? 17 A Mandy Greene. 18 Q Now, when this variety of people made 19 appointments for him, would they check with 20 you or only with her? 21 A Sometimes they asked me to check with her, 22 and sometimes they would check with her 23 directly to get it entered into the book. 24 Q Would there ever be a screening to determine 25 if a given appointment was going to be Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 40 1 allowed or not? 2 A Sometimes people would ask questions 3 regarding whether Mr. Swann wanted to meet 4 with this person or not. 5 Q Who would make the decision, that decision to 6 meet or not to meet? 7 A It depends on the situation. 8 Q Would you ever make that decision? 9 A I don't recall. 10 Q You don't recall ever making the decision, or 11 you don't recall -- 12 A I don't recall a specific incidence. 13 Q Where you made the decision? 14 A Correct. 15 Q But you could have? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Now, for these meetings, whose duty was it to 18 inform and prepare Mr. Swann? 19 A For what meetings? 20 Q Any meetings that he had on his appointment 21 book. 22 A It would depend on the subject matter. 23 Q Okay. Give me an example. If it involved a 24 budget issue, let's say, would that be 25 something that you would brief him on? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 41 1 A No. 2 Q Who would do it? 3 A Most likely, someone out of the chief 4 financial officer's office. 5 Q So when an appointment is made, who 6 determines what issues are involved and 7 coordinates the preparation? 8 A I don't recall specifically. It would depend 9 on the situation. 10 Q Wouldn't you as executive assistant make that 11 determination? 12 A Of? 13 Q What the issues are and what information 14 needs to be gathered for the administrator to 15 be prepared for the meeting? 16 A No, I would not make that decision. 17 Q Mandy Greene would make it? 18 A No. 19 Q Then who? 20 A It would depend on what the meeting was. For 21 example, if it was a budget issue, the chief 22 financial officer would make that decision 23 and would come forward with the appropriate 24 information or data. 25 Q So would each significant officer review the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 42 1 schedule to determine for him or herself 2 whether or not they should provide data to 3 the administrator? 4 A I don't believe there's ever a case where 5 each associate administrator would come look 6 at the calendar and decide what to do. 7 Q Well, how would they know whether there was a 8 meeting affecting their functional area on 9 the calendar if they didn't do it? 10 A Most often, they were the ones who put the 11 meeting on the calendar. 12 Q So if they didn't put the meeting on the 13 calendar, how would they know? Would that be 14 your duty? 15 A I don't recall that I did that. 16 Q Mandy Greene's duty? 17 A I don't recall that she did that. 18 Q So as executive assistant to the 19 administrator, just what were your duties? 20 A To do what Mr. Swann wanted me to do, to 21 assure that he had the -- that he was on time 22 to meetings, to assure that -- for example, I 23 knew that there was a regular list of things 24 that he liked to have when he went to do a 25 public speaking event. He wanted to have Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 43 1 presentation items. He wanted to have 2 meatball pens. He wanted to have his speech 3 in a particular blue book -- box. He had a 4 lot of structure to the way he operated. 5 Q Did he inform you of the structure, or did 6 you have to determine it yourself? 7 A I determined it by observation. 8 Q And you gave us a list of things here. Did 9 it include talking points? I don't recall if 10 you said that or not. 11 A I did not say that. If it was a speaking 12 event, he generally had a speech or some set 13 of talking points with him. 14 Q And who would prepare the speech? 15 A Speeches were prepared by a speech writer. 16 Q Would you arrange that as executive 17 assistant? 18 A In meetings that we had where we would review 19 the calendar, the speech writer was generally 20 always in those meetings and would know that 21 a speech was coming up. 22 Q Was there a structure for coordination of the 23 speech? 24 A Not a hard set structure. Most often -- and 25 I'm speaking of a public speech -- the speech Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 44 1 writer would talk to Mr. Swann, ask him for 2 what the themes were that he wanted to have 3 addressed. He or she would prepare the 4 speech, would give it to Mr. Swann for 5 review. They would discuss it. He would put 6 his changes in -- he would discuss changes he 7 wanted to see made to the speech, and it went 8 back and forth through generally several 9 iterations. 10 Q Did you generally attend those speeches that 11 he gave when he gave them? 12 A Yes, when they were in town. 13 Q Were you also a party at these meetings that 14 you just described? 15 A Sometimes. 16 Q Was it Mr. Swann's habit to digress from his 17 prepared text in these matters? 18 A When he gave a speech? 19 Q When he gave a speech, yes. 20 A Generally, no, for public speeches. 21 Q Were they handed out? Were the text of the 22 speeches given to the press before he gave 23 them generally? 24 A I don't recall that ever happening. 25 Q Were text of the speeches ever given to the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 45 1 press? 2 A I don't recall that ever happening. 3 Q If they were given to the press, who would 4 give them to the press? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q Would Public Affairs be the logical 7 candidate? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Who prepared talking points for Mr. Swann? 10 A They generally were prepared by the cognizant 11 office. 12 Q Cognizant of what? 13 A For example, if the -- if Mr. Swann was 14 going to give a remark on Aeronautics, then 15 it would be someone in the Aeronautics office 16 who would prepare talking points and perhaps 17 even brief Mr. Swann. 18 Q And the briefing would take the place. How 19 formal would it be? Would it be stand-up 20 with slides? 21 A No. It would be in his office. 22 Q Just sitting down and discussing it? 23 A Correct. 24 Q How was a decision made between speech 25 preparation and talking points preparation? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 46 1 A Speeches were for formal events. 2 Q Whether public or private? 3 A I don't know how you can have a public event 4 that's private. 5 Q Whether the event is public or private, if 6 there's an event, say, a GOHS employees' 7 meeting where he's going to give a speech, 8 would he have a speech prepared for that, or 9 would he have talking points prepared for 10 that? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q I consider that a private matter. 13 A I don't recall specifically. 14 Q Were you ever involved directly in 15 preparations for any meeting that Mr. Swann 16 had in '92, '93? 17 A Define "directly involved." 18 Q Were you involved as a principal actor in 19 preparing for any meetings that Mr. Swann 20 had in 1992 or 1993? 21 A I would have to say no, using what I -- using 22 your definition. 23 Q My definition. Let's change it then. Were 24 you ever given specific and direct 25 responsibility for preparing for particular Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 47 1 meetings in that time frame? 2 A I don't recall. I never prepared talking 3 points for him, for example, with the 4 exception that one time when another person 5 out of Procurement and I were asked to 6 prepare a speech for Mr. Swann on 7 Procurement reform, and we wrote it. 8 Q And what was your relationship to Helene 9 Anderson during this time frame? 10 A She was the chief of staff, and we interfaced 11 with each other. 12 Q So how does executive assistant's duties -- 13 how did they differ from chief of staff? 14 A Chief of staff could make personnel and 15 policy decisions. I could not. 16 Q Okay. Can you give me a definition of 17 "executive assistant" that I can use as a 18 working definition for the rest of the day? 19 A Not off the top of my head. 20 Q Do you want to think about it a little bit 21 over the break? 22 A (Witness nods head) 23 Q Let's go on a little bit further. Did you 24 ever meet with people in Mr. Swann's stead? 25 A I don't recall ever doing that. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 48 1 Q Did you ever attend meetings on his behalf 2 and report to him on those meetings? 3 A I don't recall ever attending a meeting on 4 his behalf and reporting to him. 5 Q Do you ever recall reporting to him on a 6 meeting? 7 A I may have commented on a meeting I had 8 attended. 9 Q Never reported? 10 A Not in the sense I believe you mean it. 11 Q What sense do you mean it? 12 A Where I tell him what the results were from a 13 meeting or the substance of the meeting. 14 Q Did you meet with Procurement people when you 15 were executive assistant? 16 A I was probably in several meetings with 17 Procurement people. 18 Q On what subjects? 19 A A variety of subjects. 20 Q Procurement-related? 21 A Procurement reforms, contractual issues. 22 Q Financing? 23 A There may have been some budget issues. 24 Q Acquisition strategies? 25 A There were probably some acquisition strategy Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 49 1 sessions that I attended. 2 Q Any meetings with contractors? 3 A I sat in on some meetings with contractors. 4 Q During '92, '93? 5 A Yes. 6 Q On any particular program? 7 A No. Runs the gambit, anybody who got on the 8 calendar. 9 Q Center directors, did you meet with center 10 directors? 11 A Yes. 12 Q In Washington? 13 A Yes. 14 Q At the centers? 15 A I recall coming to -- going to at least two 16 centers while I was up there. 17 Q Which two? 18 A I recall going to Lustig, and I recall going 19 to the Bobson Space Center. 20 Q Do you recall the purpose? 21 A No, I don't. Mr. Swann had meetings at the 22 centers. 23 Q So you went with him? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And what were your duties in these meetings? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 50 1 A To sit in on his meetings occasionally, 2 assure that he had what he needed for the 3 trip. 4 Q When you'd sit in, what would you do? 5 A Observe, listen. If there were any actions 6 that were assigned, I would track the actions 7 that came from the meetings. I would also -- 8 generally, I maintained a list of who, for 9 example, at the centers gave Mr. Swann 10 briefings because he liked to send thank you 11 notes. 12 Q Would you draft the thank you notes? 13 A I don't recall drafting thank you notes to 14 briefings at centers. 15 Q Did you have a formal system for tracking 16 actions that resulted from these meetings? 17 A No. 18 Q How did you track them? 19 A I would let the actionee know that they had 20 an action if they weren't present. I don't 21 recall that actions weren't followed up on. 22 Q Do you have any kind of what we in the legal 23 business would call "docket control"? Do you 24 understand that phrase, term? 25 A I don't know what that means. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 51 1 Q Would you put the action on the calendar and 2 check with the actionee to see that the 3 action was completed? 4 A No. 5 Q How would you find out if one wasn't 6 completed? 7 A I don't recall that actions weren't 8 completed. If they weren't, somebody would 9 let me know. 10 Q That somebody would be Mr. Swann? 11 A Perhaps. Sometimes the actions were for me, 12 and I did them. 13 Q For example? Give me an example of an action 14 that would be for you. 15 A He might ask me to call one of the centers 16 and have them provide a list of some new 17 technologies that were being developed, and I 18 would call the center and they would prepare 19 it and they would give it to me. 20 Q Okay. Did you ever put on your calendar the 21 date it was promised and follow it up? 22 A No. I maintain a very good memory of -- 23 short term memory of those items. 24 Q So you maintained all this in your head? 25 A And I had -- I have lots of notes and Post-It Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 52 1 notes that I kept on my desk. 2 Q If an action wasn't completed, why would you 3 be let known -- why would you be led to know 4 an action wasn't completed if it wasn't? 5 A Someone might call me and say, "Jen, I can't 6 get that report to you today." Or Mr. Swann 7 might say to me something like, "Did you get 8 that report yet?" I'd go, "I didn't get it," 9 if it had not come in. 10 Q And you didn't maintain any way to follow up 11 to assure that you didn't have that 12 conversation? 13 A I am a list maker. I kept many lists of 14 outstanding items. 15 Q In a notebook? 16 A Yes, as well as piles of Post-It notes and 17 notes on paper. 18 Q And was this maintained by a secretary for 19 you, these notes? 20 A No. 21 Q How was it maintained? 22 A I maintained it personally. 23 Q And you kept these lists and checked them 24 daily? 25 A Not necessarily daily, but regularly, Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 53 1 frequently. 2 Q When you attended meetings, you didn't 3 take -- you said you didn't take notes at 4 the meetings. Is that correct? 5 A Sometimes I took notes, I said, I believe. 6 Q Was there always someone to take notes at 7 these meetings? 8 A No. 9 Q Never undocumented meetings? 10 A Undocumented in the sense that there were no 11 notes taken? 12 Q Or in any sense. 13 MR. CAYRNES: You've got to say 14 what you mean. 15 MR. PALMER: She said no notes 16 were taken. 17 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Was there a summary 18 prepared of the results? 19 A What result? 20 Q Of the meeting. 21 A I don't recall. That was not a regular part 22 of the process. 23 Q What was the regular process? 24 A I'm not sure there was a process. 25 Q No process at all? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 54 1 MR. CAYRNES: The real question 2 has been asked and answered. Now you're 3 getting into ... 4 Q (By Mr. Palmer) There was no process, no 5 structure for having these meetings? 6 A That's not correct. 7 Q What structure is there? 8 A If the meeting was on the calendar, he 9 attended the meeting. There may or may not 10 have been someone taking notes. It depended 11 on the meeting. 12 Q And how would the decision be made as to 13 whether or not notes would be taken? 14 A I don't know how that decision was always 15 made. 16 Q Who made that? 17 A Sometimes I decided to take notes on a 18 meeting. Sometimes Mr. Swann instructed 19 someone to take notes at a meeting. I'm 20 speaking specifically of Mr. Swann's 21 meetings. 22 Q And those notes of Mr. Swann's where he was 23 a participant would become part of his file? 24 A No, not necessarily. 25 Q What would happen to it? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 55 1 A I don't know. 2 Q If he instructed them to take notes and they 3 took notes, what would they do with the 4 notes? What was the routine pattern and 5 practice in the agency with regard to those 6 notes? 7 A They were not kept in any formal, official 8 file. 9 Q What was done with them? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Kept at the note taker's desk or wherever the 12 note taker just determined to put them? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Were you ever tasked by Mr. Swann to find 15 any notes of a given meeting? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And what did you find? 18 A I maintained a file that had all of the 19 handouts and briefings from meetings, and I 20 would go to that file and get the briefing 21 package. 22 Q And that was part of the administrator's 23 files? 24 A Yes. I want to qualify that. It was files 25 that were kept in the administrator's suite. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 56 1 They are not there any longer. And so when 2 you say "administrator's files," I'm not sure 3 what you mean. You may mean something 4 different. 5 Q Where are they kept now -- 6 A I don't know. 7 Q -- if they're not in a suite? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Doesn't he have his own file room? 10 A When I was there, no. 11 Q To your knowledge, does he now have one? 12 A I do not know for certain. 13 Q Do you have a suspicion? 14 MR. CAYRNES: Objection to any 15 questions about suspicion. 16 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Do you know either 17 directly or indirectly that he has his own 18 file room? 19 MR. CAYRNES: I will object to 20 the lack of foundation, but you can go ahead 21 and go with this one. 22 A Do I know what now? 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) That either directly or 24 indirectly that he has his -- 25 A Currently? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 57 1 Q Yes. 2 A I have no knowledge. 3 Q So then how do you know that they are not in 4 his office now? 5 A Because after I left Washington, I went back 6 up there. I had maintained two file 7 cabinets, and they were emptied out of that 8 room, and I was told that they had been sent 9 to the library. 10 Q And you understood that to be which library? 11 A The GOHS headquarters library, I assumed. 12 Q And who told you that they had been sent 13 there? 14 A The executive assistant who replaced me. 15 Q And what was his or her name? 16 A Jim Davis. 17 Q And is he still the executive assistant? 18 A No. 19 Q Who is? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Do you know how long he was executive 22 assistant? 23 A No, I don't. Less than a year, more than a 24 couple of months. 25 Q Can you tell me why you asked about those Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 58 1 files? Why you asked Mr. Davis about those 2 files? 3 A I'm not sure I asked him about the files. 4 Q What was the reason for inquiring about the 5 status of the contents of those filing 6 cabinets, then? 7 A I asked, "Where did the files go?" And I 8 don't recall whom I asked that of. I was 9 told by whomever, "They were sent to the 10 library." 11 Q And this was in '93? 12 A No. It would be after '93. 13 Q About when? 14 A Sometime in '94. It was after I had left 15 Washington. 16 Q And when did you leave Washington? 17 A October of '93. 18 Q Where did you go when you left Washington? 19 A I returned to the Bobson Space Center and my 20 home. 21 Q In what capacity at Bobson? 22 A I went to work in the Space Station Program 23 office. 24 Q In what capacity? 25 A Contracting officer. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 59 1 Q Were you the principal contracting officer? 2 A No. 3 Q Who was? 4 A Pam Vonnegut. 5 Q You worked for Ms. Vonnegut? 6 A We worked together. 7 Q So how was the labor divided? 8 A Pam would assign work as the principal 9 contracting officer. 10 Q Okay. When she assigned work, how did she 11 divide it generally? Was there a rationale 12 as to how it was divided between you? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Were there other contracting officers? 15 A Yes. 16 Q How many? 17 A I don't recall. 18 Q Did they work on the same level with you and 19 Pam Vonnegut? 20 A We worked in the same office. 21 Q The same level of responsibility as you and 22 Pam Vonnegut? 23 A They were contracting officers. 24 Q Were they -- did they work for you and Pam 25 Vonnegut or -- Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 60 1 A They took their lead from Pam most often. 2 Q So at this point -- this is October of 3 '93 -- this is before the award of the 4 Aerobus letter contract. Is that correct? 5 A I don't recall when that was assigned. 6 Q Were you principally working with Aerobus? 7 A No. 8 Q Who were you working with as contractors? 9 A I don't recall who I worked with directly. I 10 know I dealt with Lustig on a couple of 11 OATES issues, and I spent a great deal of 12 time working on a contract to bring a 13 French space agency astronaut on board. 14 Q On board what? 15 A As a contractor, a consultant. 16 Q For what? 17 A I don't recall what his specific duties were 18 at this time. 19 Q Was it for the Space Station Program, though? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And how long were you in the Space Station 22 Program office? 23 A I was reassigned on January 6th 1994, a very 24 short time. 25 Q To where? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 61 1 A The director's office. 2 Q Who was the director at this point? 3 A Dr. Jennifer Simmons. 4 Q And is that where you are currently? 5 A I am in the director's office. 6 Q Have been continuous since 1994? 7 A I've been in the director's office since 8 January 6th 1994. 9 Q In the same position? 10 A No. 11 Q What positions have you held? Start in '94 12 when you were first assigned. 13 A I was executive assistant to Dr. Simmons. 14 They changed my title sometime, and I don't 15 recall the exact date, and I don't even 16 recall the exact title they changed it to. 17 And then I became the Associate Director of 18 Management later, which is my current 19 position. 20 Q When did you become Associate Director of 21 Management? 22 A I don't recall the specific date. 23 Q Approximately? 24 A I don't recall. 25 Q Is that an SES position? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 62 1 A It was not when I entered it. 2 Q Is it now? 3 A I am an SES. 4 Q At what level? 5 A One. 6 Q And when did you become a Level 1? 7 A The summer of '97, I believe. 8 Q When you first went to the director's office, 9 you were what grade? 10 A I was 15, I believe. 11 Q Were you a 15 when you left Washington? 12 A No. 13 Q What was your grade when you left Washington? 14 A 13. 15 Q And at the Space Station Program's office, 16 you were what grade? 17 A A 13 as I entered it. 18 Q And you left as a -- 19 A I don't believe I had a promotion before I 20 left it. 21 Q Did you go directly from 13 to 15 then? 22 A No. 23 Q Where were you a 14? 24 A In the director's office. 25 Q So in January of '94 when you were Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 63 1 reassigned, you were reassigned as a 2 Grade 14? 3 A No, 13. 4 Q So you were promoted there at that job from 5 13 to 14? 6 A After a period of time, yes. 7 Q Was the Associate Director of Management 8 position existent at the time you became the 9 associate director of management? 10 A It was a new position. 11 Q And you were the first incumbent? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And that's your current position? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And what are your duties? 16 A I have overall responsibilities for managing 17 and coordinating the functions of, for 18 shorthand's sake, the institutional side of 19 the house. 20 Q Which comprises what? Comprises what? 21 A Public Affairs, Human Resources, the Center 22 Operations. 23 Q When you say -- 24 A Procurement, Business, Finance. 25 Q "Center Operations" would be what? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 64 1 A It's familiarly known as roads and commodes. 2 Q Civil engineering type of functions? 3 A It is the logistics functions at the center 4 and facilities. 5 Q Okay. And what else? 6 A What else? 7 Q That's all of your duties, is HRPA and center 8 ops? 9 A No. I also said business administration -- 10 Q Yes. 11 A -- and the budget. 12 Q You work on the program memorandum for the 13 budget? That would be part of your job? 14 A Pardon? 15 Q The program memorandum for the budget would 16 be part of your job? 17 A I'm not certain what a "program memorandum" 18 is. 19 Q Budget request? 20 A I do not work on that per se, no. 21 Q Do you coordinate it? 22 A The CFO's office coordinates it. 23 Q Does the CFO respond principally to you? 24 A No. 25 Q No. You're co-equal? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 65 1 A The CFO works directly for the center 2 director. 3 Q So I'm trying to get in my mind clearly what 4 your budget function is then. Exactly what 5 is it? 6 A The CFO will come to me if they have issues 7 that they need addressing. In my role, I 8 have delegated all functions down to the 9 organizations. 10 Q What kind of functions are we talking about 11 here? 12 A Budget decisions, etcetera. And then they 13 come back up through the organizations to the 14 center director for final decisions. 15 Q So this would be operation and maintenance 16 type budget -- a type of budget? 17 A For the entire center. 18 Q For the entire center? 19 A Yes. 20 Q There would be no program money involved 21 here? 22 A The budget is looked at as a whole, not as 23 pieces of it. Yes, the budget includes 24 program money. 25 Q Congress allocates money for those purposes Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 66 1 and -- 2 A I'm aware of that. 3 Q So there's a distinction between program 4 money and O and M money, less control over 5 program money. Now, would you deal with the 6 program money? 7 MR. CAYRNES: Object to the 8 question. There's too much testimony in 9 that. Where's the question? 10 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Would you deal with the 11 program money and how? 12 A No. 13 Q No? So that's really not part of your 14 responsibilities? 15 A Not in terms of making decisions about how it 16 gets spent. 17 MR. CAYRNES: I'd just like to 18 note for the record -- I'll let you go on if 19 that's what you want -- this case is about an 20 alleged contract -- an alleged breach of 21 contract occurring in 1993. You know, what 22 the witness's duties are today and various 23 things that go on today might be 24 interesting. I don't see the relevance. If 25 you want to go on with it, go on with it, but Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 67 1 we're dragging on a lot of time. 2 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Have you seen the 3 pleadings in this case, copies of the 4 pleadings? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you discussed them with anyone? 7 A I don't know what the pleadings are, so I 8 don't know if I've discussed anything. 9 Q Has anyone told you what the contents of them 10 are? 11 A No, not to my knowledge. 12 Q Have you ever been requested to look for 13 documents concerning this case? 14 A I received this request and the notice of 15 deposition. 16 Q By "this" you're referring to Exhibit 2? 17 A This notice of deposition and Attachment A, 18 and I had received a request from James Maris 19 for my notes regarding the -- what is known 20 as the CEO meeting. 21 Q Do you recall when you received that request 22 from Mr. Maris? 23 A In 1998. 24 Q Do you recall the month or -- 25 A No. I'm not certain when I sent that. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 68 1 Q Go back to Washington. 2 A Uh-huh. 3 Q When you were executive assistant to 4 Mr. Swann, was it any part of your duties to 5 brief him during the day regularly? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you review publications for him and bring 8 them to his attention? 9 A Yes. 10 Q What did you review? 11 A The reading file. 12 Q Which was prepared by whom? 13 A The correspondence office. 14 Q And what was generally included in it? 15 A Letters that had come in. 16 Q Well, with regard to publications 17 specifically. 18 A No. 19 Q To your knowledge -- 20 A I don't recall it. 21 Q To your knowledge, did Mr. Swann have any 22 concern about what industry press was saying? 23 A Yes. 24 Q How did he track that? 25 A I don't know that he tracked it. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 69 1 Q Did you track it? 2 A I did not track what industry was saying. 3 Q Does GOHS have a clipping -- or at that time 4 did GOHS have a clipping service that -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q And was that part of the daily reading file? 7 A No. It was separate. 8 Q Would it go to Mr. Swann every day? 9 A I don't know that it went every day, but I 10 believe it did. 11 Q Would you review it and call matters to his 12 attention? 13 A No. 14 Q Would anybody do that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Who? 17 A Occasionally, Public Affairs did and 18 sometimes Legislative Affairs did. 19 Q Did Program Offices also do that? 20 A I suppose there might be an occasion. 21 Q Can you tell me what publications Public 22 Affairs reviewed, if you know? 23 A I don't know all of them. The clipping 24 service provided clips. 25 Q And that was an internal clipping service? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 70 1 A I don't know that. 2 Q Was it only about space matters or matters 3 touching on GOHS, or was it more general? 4 A It was all space-related. It wasn't, for 5 example, what's happening in Ceylon. 6 Q Unless it involved the Space Program? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And do you recall the publications that they 9 would use? 10 A Some of them. AVIATION WEEK AND SPACE 11 TECHNOLOGY, SPACE NEWS, various large city 12 newspapers. 13 Q WASHINGTON POST, NEW JERSEY TIMES? 14 A Certainly the NEW JERSEY TIMES, the WALL STREET 15 JOURNAL. 16 Q Did they track the Fort newspapers? 17 A I don't recall about the Fort newspapers. 18 I'm not even aware of a Fort newspaper, 19 per se. 20 MR. CAYRNES: By the way, I might 21 just note that we've been going for about an 22 hour and a half, and I just think the witness 23 ought to be advised that if she needs to take 24 a break or is tired, she can. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Of course, you at any time Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 71 1 can take a break. All you have to do is 2 ask. Do you want to take a short break now? 3 A I'd rather keep going right now and complete 4 this. 5 Q Okay. Just let me know when you want one. 6 Now, you've previously testified 7 that, I believe it was, Mandy Greene 8 maintained the calendars? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Who maintained the administrator's notebooks? 11 A What notebooks? 12 Q His personal notebooks that he kept. 13 MR. CAYRNES: Assumes facts not 14 in evidence. 15 A Tell me what the notebook was. 16 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Did he keep personal 17 notes, to your knowledge? 18 A No. 19 Q Never did? 20 A No. I'm not aware of any. 21 Q Never took any. Did he use a Commuter? 22 A No. 23 Q How did he -- how did he know where to go and 24 when to be there? 25 A He had his daily calendar. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 72 1 Q Which was in what form? 2 A It was printed out each morning. 3 Q On an 8 X 11? 4 A I don't remember the size of the paper. It 5 was on a piece of paper, though. 6 Q And that was the calendar that you said you 7 reviewed? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did he maintain a desk calendar personally? 10 A No, not that I recall. 11 Q Or a blotter calendar? 12 A No. 13 Q As he met people, you said he liked to send 14 thank you notes. Did he maintain a card file 15 on the people he met? 16 A He did not. 17 Q How did he know who to send thank you notes 18 to? 19 A When he met with people at a center, for 20 example, and they gave him briefings on 21 technology, activity, we would generally -- I 22 would call back to the center and ask for a 23 list of the people who had provided briefings 24 if I hadn't already gotten that and asked for 25 their address, and we would have Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 73 1 Correspondence Control prepare a thank you 2 note or a response of some sort. 3 Q Who's in charge of Correspondence Control? 4 A Pardon? 5 Q Who was in charge of Correspondence Control? 6 A During what period? 7 Q During this '92-'93 time frame. 8 A At one point there was a woman -- I don't 9 recall her name, Diane something -- who 10 has since retired, and then a woman named 11 Lukeette Pratt took charge of 12 Correspondence Control. 13 Q Would you get copies of the briefings as part 14 of your duties? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And these were the briefings that you said 17 were in the filing cabinet -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- you maintained? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q The calendar that was maintained, was it 22 maintained in a particular format? Was it a 23 word processing document, or was it a 24 Microsoft schedule calendar? 25 A It was a book, a regular calendar appointment Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 74 1 book. 2 Q Okay. And then daily it was extracted? 3 A Mandy Greene, the secretary, would type up 4 the schedule for the day. 5 Q And that would be a word processing 6 document? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Were those maintained chronologically once 9 the schedule for the day was established? 10 Were they -- 11 A The daily, pitched. 12 Q By whom? 13 A Whoever had that little piece of paper. 14 Q So Mandy Greene didn't maintain a 15 historical chronology of them? 16 A No. She maintained the appointment book. 17 Q Aside from the book, there's no other? 18 A Not that I'm aware of. 19 Q Was Mr. Swann, to your knowledge, a computer 20 user? 21 A No, he's not. When I was there, he was not. 22 Q During the '92-'93 time frame? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Did he have one on his desk? 25 A I don't recall. I believe he had one on a Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 75 1 credenza behind his desk, but I never saw him 2 use it. 3 Q That computer then would -- were you on a 4 local area network in the office 5 administrative suite? 6 A I'm not -- I can't attest to that. 7 Q Did you have a computer on your desk? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Was it a network? 10 A Yes. 11 Q With whom? 12 A I don't know. All I know is that I could 13 send e-mail notes. 14 Q And to whom would you send them to? 15 A Whomever I needed to send something to. 16 Q At a center? 17 A Sometimes at centers. 18 Q And was this a desktop computer or a notebook 19 computer? 20 A Desktop. 21 Q And how did you maintain your e-mail records? 22 A Define "maintain." 23 Q If the e-mail related to a particular 24 program, did you save it in a folder 25 electronically or did you print it in hard Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 76 1 copy and put it in the appropriate file? 2 A I didn't file my e-mail. 3 Q At all? 4 A I don't recall. I certainly don't have 5 any -- currently have any e-mail notes at 6 all from that time frame. I never treated 7 the e-mail system as a place for official 8 records. 9 Q So what would you correspond about in the 10 e-mail to centers? 11 A Much of my correspondence to centers involved 12 dealing with my family. 13 Q That would be to Bobson? 14 A Correct. It would be to my family. 15 Q I see. Okay. Personal. Aside from personal 16 e-mail -- 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q -- did you use it for business? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What purpose? What business purpose? 21 A To follow up on an action. 22 Q For -- 23 A Send me the names and addresses of the people 24 who gave briefings. 25 Q Do you draw a distinction between working Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 77 1 documents and official records? 2 A I'm not sure what your definition of a 3 "working document" is, but I consider that 4 official records are things that have to be 5 maintained in the official file. And, yes, I 6 distinguished between things that must be 7 maintained in the official file and things 8 that don't. If the things that don't are 9 classified as working records, yes, I 10 distinguish them. 11 Q That would probably be as good as any. But 12 they would, nevertheless, be official 13 business, the working records would be? 14 A They would be GOHS business, yes. 15 Q GOHS business. 16 A Yes. 17 Q And how do you determine which is which? 18 A Which is official records for the file? 19 Q Correct. 20 A My understanding -- and I believe it still is 21 maintained -- is that nothing on the e-mail 22 is considered official record. That comes 23 out of my Procurement background. 24 Q Whether it's internal or to a contractor? 25 A I don't recall ever sending e-mail to a Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 78 1 contractor; and, yes, that's probably still 2 the case. 3 Q Are you familiar with the e-mail protective 4 order in this case? 5 A No, I'm not. 6 Q No one has told you about it? 7 A I don't know what you're talking about. 8 Q Does the computer system fall into -- at 9 Bobson fall into the roads and commodes 10 function of maintenance of the -- 11 A No. 12 Q What system does it fall into? 13 A We have an information systems directorate. 14 Q And who is in charge of that? 15 A Bob -- Vickie Hogan. 16 Q You know, when was the information center -- 17 information systems directorate established? 18 A I don't recall. It has metamorphosed through 19 several different versions and bosses. 20 Q It was Tom Trindle, I believe your husband, 21 who was one of the principal persons involved 22 in establishing it. Is that correct? 23 A In establishing? 24 Q The information systems directorate, qua, 25 information systems directorate? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 79 1 A No. 2 Q But he was the chief information officer 3 here? 4 A He is currently the CIO at the Bobson Space 5 Center. That is separate from the 6 information systems directorate. 7 Q Oh, it is? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And how is it separate? 10 A The CIO deals with issues of policy. The 11 information system directorate deals with 12 issues of services and implementation issues. 13 Q Functionality of the system? 14 A Correct. 15 Q So the policy decision on maintenance or on 16 electronic mail -- save, destroy, whatever -- 17 would be chief information officer's 18 decision? 19 A I believe that that policy is actually a 20 headquarters' decision. 21 Q As opposed to a Bobson decision? 22 A It's an agency policy. 23 Q Okay. So Bobson follows whatever 24 headquarters says in that regard? 25 A That would be my assumption. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 80 1 Q So my question is, who at Bobson would be 2 familiar with the terms of the protective 3 order? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Any protective order involving 6 non-destruction of electronic mail, who would 7 be responsible? 8 A I do not know. 9 Q But it wouldn't be you? 10 A Absolutely not. I have a written recusal of 11 all matters dealing with information 12 technology. 13 Q You have a computer at your desk now, 14 correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And you have had it throughout the entire 17 period we're talking about from '92 to '93, 18 on up? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q Do you delete your own electronic mail? 21 A I can erase a note. 22 Q Have you done it? 23 A Sure. 24 Q In the '92-'93 time frame? 25 A Sure. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 81 1 Q What criteria did you apply? We're not 2 talking about personal notes. I'm talking 3 about business-type things. 4 A Do I need to save this note. 5 Q And that's the GOHS policy on it? 6 A "Do I need to save this note" is not a GOHS 7 policy. 8 Q Okay. So what is the GOHS policy, the 9 headquarters' policy on deletion, 10 destruction? 11 A I am not familiar with the policy. 12 Q So how does the agency assure that people 13 comply with the information policy? 14 A That's outside my bailiwick. 15 Q In your position as executive assistant to 16 Mr. Swann, you said you reviewed 17 correspondence. Did you review all 18 correspondence that came across his desk? 19 A I can't say that I did. 20 Q Is it fair to say that you probably did? 21 A I reviewed all correspondence that was 22 included in the daily reading file. 23 Q Okay. And that was being prepared by whom? 24 A Correspondence Control. 25 Q Okay. And you also reviewed his calendar? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 82 1 A Yes. 2 Q So would it be fair to say that you had a 3 good idea of what the trends were in the 4 correspondence, the issues he was looking at? 5 A Not necessarily. 6 Q Would he be able to receive something without 7 you being aware of it? 8 A Yes. 9 Q By what means? 10 A Something might be hand-carried in, and 11 similarly something might come in that was 12 marked "Personal and Confidential." He also 13 received documents that were secret, and I 14 don't have a secret clearance. 15 Q If things were hand-carried, they would be 16 given to whom when they came in? 17 A I wouldn't know if it was hand-carried. 18 Q There was no instruction to hand them to you? 19 A No. 20 Q Or to Ms. Anderson? 21 A No. 22 Q Or her successor as chief of staff? 23 A I'm not aware of any instruction. 24 Q In other words, there's no gatekeeper, no 25 director to Mr. Swann? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 83 1 A If someone walked in and had a private 2 meeting with Mr. Swann and handed him a 3 piece of correspondence, I would have no 4 knowledge of it. 5 Q If a messenger came in with a document and 6 said, "I have a document for Mr. Swann," 7 would it go to whom? 8 A If it was a piece of mail, it would come in 9 through the correspondence system; otherwise, 10 it would go in to Mr. Swann. 11 Q Directly? 12 A I don't recall. 13 Q Nobody would review it? 14 A I don't recall a specific incidence. I'm not 15 sure that that ever even happened, quite 16 frankly. 17 Q During '92, '93, were you familiar with the 18 Freedom Program, Space Station Program? 19 A I know the Freedom Program existed. I can't 20 say that I was terribly familiar with it. 21 Q Did you know who the contractors were? 22 A I knew that there were a lot of Aerospace 23 contractors. 24 Q Did you know what Alexandria was? 25 A I knew that there was a facility out at Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 84 1 Alexandria. 2 Q Do you know what its purpose was? 3 A They were working on the Space Station 4 Freedom Program. 5 Q Do you know who Bob Hewitt is? 6 A I had heard the name. 7 Q Did you know what the present contractual 8 arrangement was for that program at that 9 time? 10 A No. 11 Q Now you're a Procurement person -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- in an executive job with the largest 14 program in the agency at the time, and you 15 didn't know how it was structured. Is that 16 your testimony? 17 MR. CAYRNES: Object to the -- 18 what's the question? 19 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Is that your testimony, 20 that you didn't know how it was structured? 21 A I did not know the specific structure of all 22 the contracts involving Space Station 23 Freedom. 24 Q Did you know the general structure? 25 A In a very, very broad sense perhaps. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 85 1 Q Did you know who the four prime contractors 2 were? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know anything about the present Space 5 Station Program's arrangement? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you know how in '92-'93 time frame the 8 Space Station Program ranked in Mr. Swann's 9 priorities as administrator? 10 A He did not tell me. 11 Q From the correspondence could you tell? 12 MR. CAYRNES: You're asking for 13 an opinion? 14 Q (By Mr. Palmer) I'm asking if from the 15 correspondence you can tell that there was a 16 lot of activity involving the Space Station? 17 MR. CAYRNES: That's a different 18 question. 19 A I don't recall how much correspondence was 20 related to Space Station, and that might not 21 correctly indicate the interest in the 22 program. 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) By the administrator? 24 A Correct. 25 Q Do you know what, during this time frame, Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 86 1 portion of the GOHS budget the Space Station 2 represented? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you recall if it was major? 5 A I said I did not recall. 6 Q You don't even know if it was major? 7 A It was certainly a big part of the GOHS 8 budget. 9 Q Since this case was filed over the last, I 10 guess -- well, let's say in the last six 11 years, have you discussed it with Mr. Swann? 12 MR. CAYRNES: Object to that 13 question as ambiguous. Can you rephrase 14 that? 15 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Have you discussed this 16 case with Mr. Swann any time over the last 17 six years? 18 A No. 19 Q Discussed it with Mr. Abbey? 20 MR. CAYRNES: I object to your 21 referring to "this case" in connection with 22 the last six years because this case was not 23 filed six years ago. It was filed about a 24 year ago. There was no case. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Since May of 1997, have Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 87 1 you discussed this case with Mr. Swann? 2 A No. 3 Q Mr. Abbey? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What was that discussion? 6 A I said, "Mr. Abbey, I've been called to give 7 a deposition." 8 Q Was that the first time you discussed it with 9 him? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Had he ever discussed it with you prior to 12 that? 13 A No. 14 Q And what did he say? 15 MR. CAYRNES: The answer to the 16 question was "no," and you're asking what did 17 he say? 18 MR. PALMER: Well, she told him 19 that she had been called for a deposition. 20 Q (By Mr. Palmer) What did he say? 21 A He said, "Oh." 22 Q And that was all? 23 A He may have said -- made -- I believe I said, 24 "I have talked to Mr. Cayrnes about it, 25 and he has told me to be forthright and Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 88 1 honest." 2 Q Did you talk to any other lawyers about it 3 other than Mr. Cayrnes? 4 A Mr. Cooley. 5 Q Any others? 6 A No. 7 Q Not Mr. Forbes? 8 A No. I've never talked to him. 9 Q Mr. Maris? 10 A Never talked to him about this case. 11 Q Mr. Grammercy? 12 A No. 13 Q What about Mr. Minuet? Have you talked to 14 him about this case? 15 A No. 16 Q Have you talked to anyone at Aerobus about 17 this case? 18 A No. 19 Q Or to former Rhender? 20 A No. 21 Q Or Merkel? 22 A Let's make it short. I've told you 23 everything I've talked about. 24 Q Have you read any newspaper articles or 25 magazine articles about this case? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 89 1 A No. 2 Q When I'm saying talked to these people, I 3 include in that exchange of faxes, e-mail, or 4 any other means of communication. Does your 5 answer include those means of communication 6 as well? 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. What -- 9 A I sent an e-mail to a gentleman this morning 10 saying: "Sorry I haven't gotten back to 11 you. I won't be able to meet with you 12 today. I have to go give a deposition." And 13 that -- 14 Q To none of those people that I talked -- 15 A No, I haven't talked to those people. 16 Q Okay. What I'm going to do now at this point 17 is we'll go off the record and take a quick 18 lunch break. 19 20 (Noon Recess) 21 22 MR. CAYRNES: Before we proceed 23 with the questioning, now that we've come 24 back from this break, I want to state 25 something for the record. In this case, on a Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 90 1 number of occasions the judge has expressed a 2 concern about the large amount of discovery 3 that the plaintiff contemplates taking and 4 how, if at all, this discovery is leading to 5 substantiating anything on the plaintiff's 6 position on the merits of this case. 7 Now, so far today, I don't think 8 we've had a single question all morning that 9 dealt with the merits of the case or any of 10 the allegations in the complaint. We've had 11 a lot of background questions in excruciating 12 detail about how this witness went about her 13 duties when she was in a GS-08, GS-09 14 developmental position. We've had various 15 other questions of this kind of an extremely 16 background sort, and it's eaten up the whole 17 morning with that and have yet to come to 18 anything relating to the issues. Now, this 19 is a burden on us. I'm busy; I've got a 20 heavy case load. The witness is busy; she's 21 got a lot of other work to do for GOHS 22 besides sitting in this deposition. We're 23 prepared to do our responsibility and respond 24 to reasonable discovery, but we're just not 25 going to be sitting and be held captive here Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 91 1 while there's question after question that 2 seems to be going nowhere. You can decide 3 what's worth your while and what's not, but 4 it's a burden on us, too, and we don't have 5 to sit through this indefinitely. I assume 6 that we're soon going to get to the point in 7 this. I cannot promise -- if you keep on 8 with all this background line of questioning, 9 I cannot promise that at the end of the day 10 if you haven't finished what you really need 11 to do that we're going to be back here 12 tomorrow or as long as you think it might 13 take. This deposition could be finished 14 within the next couple of hours at most, I 15 think, if we come to the point. We have not 16 even started coming to the point yet here. I 17 think we ought to do so. I say this because 18 I want you to be on notice. I don't want at 19 the end of the day to say, "Well, you know, 20 we're out of here. You wasted your time." 21 I'm telling you now you've been wasting a lot 22 of time, in my view, and I have to say 23 insofar as it wastes my time or the time of 24 any other government official, and so I'm 25 putting you on notice now that we're not Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 92 1 going to sit through this indefinitely. 2 MR. PALMER: Nice speech. Okay. 3 Perhaps you'll instruct her to be more 4 forthcoming and move on. 5 MR. CAYRNES: Excuse me. She's 6 been forthcoming with every single question 7 that you've asked. If she doesn't know the 8 answer to a question, the only forthcoming 9 answer she can give is she doesn't know. If 10 you ask a question that's vague or unclear, 11 it's your responsibility to couch the 12 question correctly. She has been as 13 forthcoming as possible and as forthcoming as 14 necessary. 15 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Before taking the 16 executive assistant's job, did you talk to 17 anyone about the job, a predecessor perhaps 18 in that job? 19 A I talked to my predecessor, yes. 20 Q Who was that? 21 A Dick Simons. 22 Q And did you talk to anyone else, predecessors 23 in that job? 24 A I believe that Charlene DeChaum may have been 25 a predecessor in the position. I did not Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 93 1 talk to her about the job. 2 Q Did they describe the position to you? 3 A Dick Simons described the job to me. 4 Q Okay. What was your understanding of what he 5 said? 6 A In essence, you're a go-for. 7 Q Did he give -- are you aware whether or not 8 Mr. Swann uses his executive assistants in a 9 manner different from any other 10 administrator? 11 A Administrator of GOHS? 12 Q Correct. 13 A I have no knowledge of any other 14 administrators. 15 Q So Dick Simons was administrator to Swann? 16 A Excuse me? 17 Q I mean executive assistant to Swann? 18 A No, he was not the administrator. He was the 19 executive assistant. 20 Q Sorry, I misspoke on that. While you were 21 there as executive assistant, how long was 22 your average day? 23 A Ten to twelve hours, depending on the nature 24 of the meetings for the day and the work that 25 was on the plate. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 94 1 Q And that was five days a week? 2 A That was during the week, and then I 3 frequently worked on weekends. 4 Q Was that once a month, twice a month, or once 5 a quarter? 6 A That I worked on weekends? 7 Q Yes. 8 A It probably averaged three to four weekends a 9 month, sometimes five weekends a month. 10 Q And is it fair to say you worked on the red 11 and blue teams? 12 A No, I did not work on those teams. 13 Q You didn't work on those teams. Now, refresh 14 my recollection. Did you tell me what 15 documents you reviewed before coming here 16 today for this deposition? 17 A You'd have to check the record. 18 Q Did you? 19 A Did I? 20 Q What did you review? 21 A I looked at the documents that I had in my 22 files. 23 Q And those files are where? 24 A I gave them to Jay Cooley. 25 Q Okay. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 95 1 MR. PALMER: Have all those 2 documents been produced to us? 3 COOLEY: Everything she's given 4 to my office have been sent to our 5 headquarters for production. 6 MR. PALMER: Have they been 7 produced, Steven? 8 MR. CAYRNES: I assume so. You 9 know, some of the production went through 10 James Maris. 11 MR. PALMER: Will you check on 12 that for me, please? 13 MR. CAYRNES: I can tell you we 14 acted consistently with our responses to the 15 request for production of documents. So if 16 there were documents that were requested 17 previously within the same scope as what's 18 requested here -- and I think they all 19 overlap -- and if we didn't object or say 20 they didn't exist, then we either produced 21 them or we made them available. I mean, a 22 lot of the documents were reviewed on site. 23 MR. PALMER: Will you check to 24 see if they were all made available? That's 25 all I'm asking. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 96 1 MR. CAYRNES: I can double-check, 2 but we responded to your request. 3 MR. PALMER: Just check for me, 4 okay? 5 MR. CAYRNES: I'll take that 6 under advisement. I don't know how many 7 times I can repeat the same tasks just 8 because you've asked for it. By the way, 9 it's not that simple because this involves 10 finding out these various categories of 11 documents, you know, what was sent over to 12 you and hand-delivered to you, what was at 13 headquarters, what was at some other site 14 where you expected documents. I shouldn't 15 have to go and track this process over again 16 just because you're asking it now. But if I 17 can, you know, with reasonable effort give 18 you an answer on that, I'll do that. 19 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Has anyone asked you to 20 look for documents related to the July 22nd 21 CEO meeting -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- other than what you just described in your 24 notes before the break? 25 A The only person that ever asked me for a copy Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 97 1 of it was James Maris. 2 Q And you sent them all to him? 3 A Correct. 4 Q And that was your notes? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Where were those notes kept? 7 A I had them in my desk. 8 Q In a special file? 9 A No. 10 Q In any personal file? 11 A It was in a personal file. 12 Q Were there any other notes in that file that 13 related to the CEO meeting? 14 A No. 15 Q You've been asked for your personal files 16 related to the Freedom Program by Mr. Maris? 17 A I don't know that I've been asked 18 specifically for my documents related to the 19 Freedom Program, but I've provided everything 20 I had in my files on the Space Station 21 Program. 22 Q Your personal files as well? 23 A Yes. 24 Q You indicated that you went to Washington in 25 1992 on this developmental program. Did you Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 98 1 become familiar with the Freedom Program 2 immediately, or were you already familiar 3 with it? 4 A I was not familiar with it other than that it 5 was a Space Station Program. I'm not certain 6 that I could say I became very familiar with 7 it when I was up there. 8 Q In Washington? 9 A Correct. 10 MR. PALMER: Let's give her a 11 document, which we'll mark as Exhibit 3. 12 (Trindle Exhibit No. 3 13 marked for identification) 14 MR. PALMER: Off the record. 15 (Discussion off the record) 16 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Are these your notes? 17 A I don't recall that these are my notes at 18 all. 19 Q Refer, please, to Bates Page No. 316. That's 20 the Bates number, the last three, at the 21 bottom of the page. 22 A Excuse me? 23 Q The last three page numbers. 24 A It's 316, Page 1? 25 Q That's the first page, correct. Do you see Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 99 1 up in paragraph "Present:"? 2 A Yes. 3 Q You're present? 4 A I see that. 5 Q Do you recall who took these notes if you 6 didn't? 7 A No, I don't. 8 MR. CAYRNES: I might note for 9 the record that in referring to these notes, 10 they don't even look anything like notes on 11 the face of the document. 12 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Look at Bates 333 about 13 halfway down the file. Okay. Do you see 14 under those present in these minutes or 15 notes, whatever you want to call them, that 16 you were there as well? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q Were these your product? 19 MR. CAYRNES: When you say 20 "these," you're referring to what? 21 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Bates Page 333 and 334 and 22 associated attachments. 23 A I don't recall that these are my notes. 24 Q Do you draw any distinction between notes and 25 minutes? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 100 1 A For purposes of this? 2 Q Yes. 3 A I don't recall that I took these minutes or 4 recorded these or typed them up. 5 Q And you're referring to the 333 Bates stamp 6 number? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Would you note for me, please, that 316 and 9 333 are dated the same day with different 10 attendees? Do you have any recollection as 11 to the difference between the two? 12 A I don't recall either of these meetings, 13 frankly. 14 Q But you were there? 15 A The -- this says I was there. I do not 16 recall a specific. 17 Q Do you have any reason to believe you were 18 not there? 19 A I have no reason to believe that I was not 20 there, but I can't attest to it. I don't 21 recall being there. 22 Q So if it says you were there, you were 23 probably there? 24 MR. CAYRNES: Asked and answered. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Correct? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 101 1 MR. CAYRNES: Objection; asked 2 and answered. 3 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Is it GOHS's practice to 4 list people as attendees who were not in 5 attendance? 6 A I am not -- of course not. 7 Q Thank you. Let's look and see. This will 8 be 4. 9 (Trindle Exhibit No. 4 10 marked for identification) 11 Q I'll now show you a document which has been 12 marked as Exhibit 4. The Bates number at the 13 bottom of the page is 166. Were you present 14 for this meeting? 15 A I don't recall this at all. 16 Q Could these be your notes? 17 A I don't recall that they were or were not. 18 Q Look at the handwriting to the left of the 19 numerals under "Termination Costs." Do you 20 recognize that handwriting? 21 A No, I don't. 22 Q Is it yours? 23 A It does not look like my handwriting. 24 MR. PALMER: This is 5. 25 (Trindle Exhibit No. 5 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 102 1 marked for identification) 2 Q I'll show you a document that's been marked 3 as Exhibit 5. Have you ever seen this 4 document? 5 A I don't recall seeing it. 6 Q Do you know if Mr. Swann ever saw it? 7 A I don't recall seeing it myself. I wouldn't 8 remember if Mr. Swann saw it, either. 9 Q Is it the type of document that he would see? 10 A I would not know. 11 Q Did he make the selection on the single 12 prime? 13 A My recollection is that Tom O誰eil chaired a 14 panel that made the selection. 15 Q So it was not personally made by Mr. Swann? 16 A My recollection is that Tom O誰eil made the 17 selection as part of a panel -- he had a 18 panel make a selection. 19 Q As opposed to a recommendation, he actually 20 made a selection? 21 A I do not recall specifically. 22 Q I want you to note, if you would, please, the 23 format of this document. Is this a standard 24 GOHS format that was used here? 25 A I don't know. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 103 1 Q Does it conform to the format that was used 2 when you were there at headquarters? 3 A I'm not aware of any specific format for 4 something like this. 5 Q Like this Exhibit 5? Were you on the panel 6 involved in the selection of single prime? 7 A No. 8 Q Were you at any of the meetings? 9 A I don't recall being at any of their 10 meetings. 11 Q Do you recall any discussion about the 12 Procurement method that would be used to get 13 to a single prime? 14 A I remember that there were a number of 15 discussions about the transition or how 16 moving to a single prime could be 17 accomplished. 18 Q Were you involved in any of them? 19 A Was I a participant in the discussion? No. 20 Q Were you present for any of them? 21 A On occasion. 22 Q Did it involve Mr. Swann? 23 A They may have. 24 Q Or Mr. Abbey? 25 A They may have. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 104 1 (Trindle Exhibit No. 6 2 marked for identification) 3 Q While you're perusing that Exhibit 6, do you 4 recall whose responsibility it was to develop 5 the statement of work for the single prime? 6 A No, I don't recall. 7 Q Who would it be in your experience at that 8 time? 9 A It would be unfair of me to suppose anything. 10 Q It's an action item, correct? 11 A This? 12 Q No. I mean, to develop a statement of work 13 would be an action item? 14 A Somebody would have to develop a statement of 15 work. 16 Q Where would that fall in the organization as 17 you were familiar with it in 1992 and '93? 18 A I do not know. 19 Q Look at No. 6. 20 MR. CAYRNES: Paragraph No. 6, 21 page, exhibit? 22 MR. PALMER: Exhibit. 23 A Is that this one? 24 Q (By Mr. Palmer) That's the one, yes. Tell 25 me, if you would -- it has a 11-05-03 at the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 105 1 top and Bates No. 23801 and 23802 on the next 2 page. 3 A Uh-huh. 4 Q Do you know if you or Mr. Swann ever saw 5 this document? 6 A I do not know whether Mr. Swann saw it or 7 not. I do not recall whether I saw it or 8 not. 9 Q Do you know who would have prepared this? 10 A No, I do not. 11 Q Given your knowledge of the functional areas 12 within GOHS, what organization would have 13 responsibility to develop this kind of time 14 line? 15 A I do not know. 16 Q Do you have any understanding of the status 17 of the Space Station Program within the 18 agency? Was there a feeling that this was a 19 program that was possibly going to lose 20 support from Congress? 21 MR. CAYRNES: Objection; the 22 question is vague. To the extent that it 23 isn't vague, the government's already 24 answered that in written discovery. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) What were the rumors in Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 106 1 the halls? 2 A About? 3 Q In '92-'93 on whether or not Congress would 4 continue to support the program? 5 A I don't know what the rumors in the hallways 6 were. 7 Q This is No. 7, I believe. Exhibit 7. 8 (Trindle Exhibit No. 7 9 marked for identification) 10 Q I'd like you to take a look at this document 11 and ask if you recognize it. 12 A No, I don't. 13 Q Do you recall any discussion about the 14 determination and finding necessary to go to 15 a single contract prime? 16 A I don't recall any specific discussion. 17 Q What in general do you recall? 18 MR. CAYRNES: I would object at 19 this point. If you're going to ask -- I 20 mean, I don't know whether the witness knows 21 the precise answer to the question you're 22 asking. But there is a deliberative process 23 privilege that's applicable to internal 24 deliberations on policy-making matters by the 25 government. To the extent that you're asking Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 107 1 about the content of these internal 2 deliberations, I'd have to object and 3 instruct the witness not to answer on the 4 grounds of deliberative process privilege. 5 Q (By Mr. Palmer) What discussions in 6 general did you hear about the D and M? 7 MR. CAYRNES: Are you asking the 8 substance of discussions or subject? 9 MR. PALMER: Substance. I don't 10 need a verbatim. 11 MR. CAYRNES: Well, again, if 12 you're asking about recommendations that were 13 made within agency on policy matters relating 14 to this subject, I would instruct the witness 15 not to answer. 16 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Go ahead and tell me. 17 MR. CAYRNES: If it's strictly 18 factual; otherwise, don't. 19 Q (By Mr. Palmer) All I want to know is what 20 was said. That's a factual matter. Go 21 ahead. 22 MR. CAYRNES: If what was said 23 was factual, yes. If what was said was 24 recommendations, then it's not. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) All I want are the general Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 108 1 facts. 2 A The only thing I recall -- and I may be 3 incorrect in my recollection -- was that the 4 D and F had to go to Congress. 5 MR. PALMER: But, just for the 6 record, I want to say I don't recognize the 7 deliberative process. 8 MR. CAYRNES: As long as the 9 Court does, it doesn't matter. 10 MR. PALMER: Well, it doesn't. 11 It's not in the Rules. 12 MR. CAYRNES: It's in the cases. 13 MR. PALMER: What's next? 14 MR. CAYRNES: You know they're in 15 the cases. You know the cases. 16 MR. PALMER: Steven -- 17 MR. CAYRNES: All right. We'll 18 decide it when we have to. 19 (Trindle Exhibit No. 8 20 marked for identification) 21 Q (By Mr. Palmer) I'll show you a document 22 that's been marked as Exhibit 8. I'll ask 23 you if you're familiar with it. 24 A Is that this one? 25 Q Yes. It's Bates -- Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 109 1 A I just don't see Exhibit 8 on it. 2 Q -- Nos. 417 through 420 -- 421, excuse me. 3 It's 417 to 421. 4 A Uh-huh. 5 Q Do you recognize this? 6 A No, I don't. 7 Q Do you know if Mr. Swann ever saw this? 8 A I don't remember it, and I don't know if 9 Mr. Swann saw it. 10 Q Do you know how many times Mr. Swann met 11 with chief executive officers of major 12 corporations -- 13 A No. 14 Q -- as a group? 15 A No. 16 Q During your time as executive assistant, how 17 many times did he meet with them? 18 A I don't know. I didn't count. 19 Q So it was more than one? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q You know of one, though? 22 A I know of the one that was in July that 23 everyone has referred to continually as "the 24 CEO meeting." Mr. Swann also had meetings 25 dealing with metrics where he met with Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 110 1 multiple contractors, and I assume there were 2 a number of CEO's in those meetings. 3 Q Fortune 100 companies? 4 A Aerospace contractors. 5 Q Say it again. 6 A Aerospace contractors. 7 Q But not Fortune 100 aerospace? 8 A I don't know what companies are Fortune 100 9 nor 500. I'm not in the habit of reading 10 that magazine. 11 Q What purposes would he meet with Aerospace 12 contractors for? 13 A The running of GOHS and its programs. 14 Q And to seek their input? 15 MR. CAYRNES: You're getting off 16 on a tangent here. You can do that a little 17 bit, but you really are. 18 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Seek their input? 19 A It depended on the subject matter. 20 Q Was it the usual thing to meet with the CEO's 21 of Fortune 100, 500, CEO's? 22 A Define those companies. I don't know. Was 23 it his habit of meeting with CEO's 24 individually or as a group? 25 Q Aerobus, Rhender-Douglas -- Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 111 1 A I have told you of the times that I'm aware. 2 One was the meeting that is continually being 3 referred to as "the CEO meeting," and I also 4 know that he met with a group of contractors 5 regarding contractor metrics. 6 Q Okay. On a given program or just in general? 7 A Generic. 8 Q Was it his practice to meet with all CEO's on 9 a given program? 10 A Not to my recollection. 11 Q I'll now show you a document that's been 12 marked as Exhibit 9. 13 (Trindle Exhibit No. 9 14 marked for identification) 15 Q It comprises Bates No., last three numbers, 16 422 through 427 and ask if you can take a 17 look at that, please, Ms. Trindle. Have you 18 ever seen this document? 19 A I don't recall seeing it. 20 Q Is it the kind of document that you would 21 have seen in your duties as executive 22 assistant? 23 A I don't recall seeing this document. 24 Q Is this the kind of presentation you would 25 have kept in those files that you referred to Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 112 1 earlier? 2 A If it was a briefing that was given to 3 Mr. Swann, yes. I'm sure I was present. 4 Q Now I'll show you a document that is No. 10. 5 (Trindle Exhibit No. 10 6 marked for identification) 7 Q I'll ask you if you have ever seen this. 8 A I don't recall seeing it. 9 Q Are you familiar with it? 10 A No. 11 Q Now, you worked for Ann Rice, correct? 12 A When? 13 Q In 1992 -- '89 to '92? 14 A No, not that full-time. 15 Q And you testified that -- 16 A That I worked for her until she left the 17 Bobson Space Center. 18 Q Which you said was in 1992? 19 A No, I did not. I said she left sometime 20 between that period, and I'm not familiar 21 with when she left. 22 Q Okay. And she became what when she left? 23 A I'm not sure what her position was. I 24 believe she went to become a member of the 25 Synthesis Group. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 113 1 Q Which was what? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Was it a Procurement function? 4 A I don't recall. 5 Q Do you recall if she worked in Procurement at 6 all while she was at headquarters? 7 A At all when she was at headquarters? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Yes. She eventually became, and continues to 10 be, the head of -- the associate 11 administrator for associate -- associate 12 administrator for Procurement. 13 Q Do you know if Mr. Swann ever saw this 14 document? 15 A I do not know. 16 Q Are you familiar with the substance of the 17 matters covered by this document? 18 A Well, I can tell you what it looks like it 19 is, but I'm not familiar with the content of 20 it at all. 21 Q Not from your review of the correspondence in 22 the administrator's office? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you know who Ann is who's referenced at 25 the top here? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 114 1 A I do not know specifically what Ann they're 2 referring to. 3 Q Were there other Anns other than Ann Rice? 4 A There was Ann Rice, and I'm not certain that 5 there were -- well, there were some other 6 Anns at headquarters. 7 Q In Procurement? 8 A I don't recall. 9 Q Are you familiar with the transition team 10 from Freedom to Alpha, now International 11 Space Station? 12 A I know there was a transition team. 13 Q Do you know how it developed transition to 14 redesign to the International Space Station? 15 A I can't say that I'm familiar with how it 16 developed. 17 (Trindle Exhibit No. 11 18 marked for identification) 19 Q I'll show you a document that I believe is 20 marked Exhibit 11. Can you tell me what 21 Code G is at headquarters? 22 A At GOHS headquarters, it's the legal office. 23 Q And Code H? 24 A It's the Office of Procurement. 25 Q And during the 1992-1993 time frame, who was Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 115 1 associate administrator for Procurement? 2 A I'm not certain of who was initially. Bo 3 Smith was the head of Procurement for some 4 period of time, but I believe he left. He 5 left, but I'm not sure when. I believe that 6 Helene Anderson was brought in as the head of 7 Procurement, and then eventually Ann Rice 8 became the head of Procurement. 9 Q Now, when did that job become a deputy 10 administrator position? 11 A Which job? 12 Q The Procurement job. 13 MR. CAYRNES: Was that in 14 evidence that that happened? 15 Q (By Mr. Palmer) As opposed to an assistant 16 administrative position? 17 A I'm not aware that it was ever -- it has been 18 a deputy administrator job. 19 Q Okay. All right. Would you take a look, 20 please, at Exhibit 11. 21 A Is that this one? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q And do you know if Mr. Swann attended this 25 meeting? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 116 1 A I'm not certain this was a meeting. 2 Q Well, was he familiar with the matters here? 3 A I do not know. 4 Q Is this the kind of thing that he would be 5 briefed, in your experience as executive 6 assistant? 7 MR. CAYRNES: It's vague. You 8 asked is this the kind of thing that he would 9 be briefed? 10 Q (By Mr. Palmer) The matters raised in this 11 document, are these types of matters that you 12 would expect him to be briefed on? 13 A I'm not going to speak specifically for this 14 document. He was in frequent discussions 15 with people involving the redesign of the 16 Space Station. 17 Q Do you recall whether those people -- 18 principally Mr. Abbey? 19 A Whether those people were Mr. Abbey? 20 Q That he was frequently involved in 21 discussions, would be Mr. Roberts, 22 Mr. Abbey? 23 A It would include them. 24 Q Mr. Hewitt? 25 A I don't recall him ever being a part of Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 117 1 discussions. 2 Q Any contractor personnel? 3 A I don't recall that there were meetings with 4 contractor personnel regarding redesign. 5 Q In Washington or Cheyenne, Washington state? 6 A I would not know. I've never been in 7 Washington. 8 Q State? 9 A State. 10 Q Exhibit 12? 11 A Is that 4528? 12 Q Correct, and 29 and 30. 13 (Trindle Exhibit No. 12 14 marked for identification) 15 Q Are you familiar with this document that's 16 been marked as Exhibit 12? 17 A That's 4528? 18 Q Correct, and 29 and 30. Are you familiar 19 with this document? 20 A No, I'm not. 21 Q Are you familiar with the Options A, B, and 22 C? 23 A I know there were three options that were 24 developed. 25 Q For what? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 118 1 A The Space Station Redesign. 2 Q And Mr. Swann participated in that process 3 to your knowledge? 4 A He was kept aware of the process, and he 5 provided feedback. 6 Q By whom was he kept aware? 7 A He frequently met with the people who were 8 doing the redesign. 9 Q And that would be Jamison Minuet? 10 A It was a number of people on the Redesign 11 team. 12 Q Did he meet when Jamison Minuet? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And Pam Vonnegut? 15 A Yes, and others. 16 Q And who else in that -- at that level, fairly 17 high level? 18 A Simon Spiwack. 19 Q Ann Rice? 20 A Ann Rice, Porter Bonneville, and others. 21 Q Would you take a look at the slides attached 22 here? 23 A That's the back two pages? 24 Q Yes, 529 and 530. 25 A Uh-huh. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 119 1 Q Do you know if these are from a briefing that 2 the administrator may have received on these 3 matters? 4 A I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing 5 them. 6 Q Would this be the type of thing that you were 7 talking about that he would have been advised 8 of in the meetings, referenced people? 9 A No. 10 Q Why do you say "no"? 11 A The meetings that I attended where he was 12 discussing the redesign, he was looking at it 13 primarily from a technical standpoint. 14 Q Technical -- scientific technical? 15 A Engineering. 16 Q Engineering. I'm not an engineer myself, so 17 I'm interested to know what kinds of things 18 were talked about. Are we talking about 19 having more -- 20 A There were three different teams who were 21 working different options for the redesign. 22 I don't recall the specific criteria that 23 were given to each team. I remember that one 24 of the options, for example, was building a 25 great big huge, if you will, tin can, a long Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 120 1 tube, which was a total redesign that would 2 have different floors in it. They would tell 3 him what that design looked like, and he 4 would comment on it from an engineering 5 standpoint. He was an engineering genius in 6 my mind, and he would offer comments like, 7 "Have you planned for a jitter analysis?" 8 Q Which is what? What's a jitter analysis? 9 A I have no idea. 10 Q Do you recognize the handwriting on 528? 11 A No, I don't. 12 Q It's not yours? 13 A It's not mine. 14 Q Where is the Program Review Center, the 15 Administrators Program Review Center? 16 A It's a large conference room on the 9th floor 17 of the GOHS building, at least the one I'm 18 familiar with. 19 Q It's not a specific organization? It's just 20 a place? 21 A Correct. That's my knowledge. 22 Q Okay. I'll show you a document that's marked 23 as Exhibit 13. 24 (Trindle Exhibit No. 13 25 marked for identification) Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 121 1 Q And I'll ask you if you've ever seen this 2 document. 3 A I don't recall seeing it. 4 Q During your period as executive assistant to 5 Mr. Swann, would congressional questions be 6 routed through you through the Legislative or 7 otherwise? 8 A You mean if there was a hearing and they 9 submitted questions as part of the hearing? 10 Q Or if a committee just sent questions down to 11 the agency? 12 A I don't recall committee ever just sending 13 questions. Questions generally came out of a 14 hearing. 15 Q Okay. Take a look at 631, these questions. 16 A 6231? 17 Q It's 6231, correct. 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q Do you know the origin of -- was this a 20 hearing at the Subcommittee on Science 21 Technology and Space? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Who would know whether or not that was the 24 case? 25 A Someone in Legislative Affairs, I would Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 122 1 assume. 2 (Trindle Exhibit No. 14 3 marked for identification) 4 Q I'll show you a document that's been marked 5 as Exhibit 14 and ask you if you read SPACE 6 STATION NEWS of this kind -- 7 A I don't recall ever seeing it. 8 Q -- in June of '93? Do you recall any 9 discussion about information contained in the 10 SPACE STATION NEWS? 11 A I don't recall SPACE STATION NEWS. 12 Q Was this one of the publications, to your 13 knowledge, that was in the packet that 14 Mr. Swann was -- 15 A In the reading clips? I don't recall ever 16 seeing it in the reading clips. 17 (Trindle Exhibit No. 15 18 marked for identification) 19 Q I'll show you a document now that's marked as 20 Exhibit 15 and ask you if you would refer to 21 Page 2 of it, Bates No. 359. 22 A Uh-huh. 23 Q Note under the caption "End Of The Road For 24 Adams?" "The SRT's plans also appear to 25 end Adams's long history of the Space Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 123 1 Station Program," that sentence? 2 A Uh-huh. 3 Q Do you recall any discussion with Mr. Swann 4 about anyone at the SRT? 5 MR. CAYRNES: What is this 6 referring to? 7 MR. PALMER: This article. 8 A No. This article, I don't recall anything in 9 this article. 10 Q (By Mr. Palmer) The fact that the SRT's 11 proposed elimination of Adams from the 12 program? 13 MR. CAYRNES: You're assuming a 14 fact not in evidence. That's not a fact in 15 evidence. 16 A The Redesign team, it was not their job to 17 make any assumptions about contractors. 18 Q (By Mr. Palmer) It was their job, however, 19 to plan the redesign, correct? 20 A To offer three different designs. 21 Q And whichever one, A, B, or C, would impact 22 the contractors, correct? 23 MR. CAYRNES: You're asking for 24 an opinion? 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) I'm asking for a factual Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 124 1 statement. 2 A Ask your question again, please. 3 Q The Options A, B, and C had different effects 4 on the contractors, did they not? 5 A If one was selected, each one would have a 6 different result. 7 Q For example, if Option C, the man in the can 8 that you referred to earlier -- 9 A You referred to it as a man in a can. 10 Q Well, the long can, whatever it was, that 11 would appear to eliminate trusses, correct? 12 A I'm not technical. I couldn't attest. 13 Q Well, then the truss contractor would be out 14 of a job, wouldn't he? 15 A One might assume that, but I'm not going to 16 speculate. 17 Q Did anyone ever brief the administrator on 18 the impact on the various Freedom contractors 19 of the Options A, B, or C? 20 A I don't recall specifically. 21 Q If they had, would you know? 22 A Probably. I believe that his discussions 23 were more along technical lines and cost 24 lines, as well as international partners. 25 (Trindle Exhibit No. 16 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 125 1 marked for identification) 2 Q Take a look, please, at the document that 3 I've handed you that's been marked as 4 Exhibit 16. It's another report from SPACE 5 BUSINESS NEWS. Are you familiar with that 6 publication? 7 A No, I'm not. 8 Q Are you familiar with the fast-track award 9 authority that's referenced here that GOHS 10 was seeking for the single prime? 11 A I don't recall anything called "fast-track 12 award" specifically. 13 Q Do you recall anything about the award of the 14 single prime and methodology to be used? 15 A Not specifically. 16 Q Who would have briefed the administrator on 17 the Procurement means of accomplishing the 18 transition to a single prime? 19 A It could have been a variety of people. 20 Q Who would have primary responsibility? 21 A I can't say. I don't know. 22 Q Would Ann Rice principally do that? 23 A She might have been one of them. 24 Q Would she delegate it likely? 25 A I don't know. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 126 1 Q Did there come a time when the administrator, 2 during this time period that you were 3 executive assistant, became aware that 4 Adams was threatening legal action or could 5 be said to have threatened legal action? 6 MR. CAYRNES: Assumes facts not 7 in evidence; objection. 8 Q (By Mr. Palmer) You can answer. 9 MR. CAYRNES: Go ahead and answer 10 it if you can. 11 A Would you please repeat your question? 12 MR. CAYRNES: There's a little 13 bit of a why-don't-you-stop-beating-your-wife 14 aspect in that question. 15 Q (By Mr. Palmer) In these articles that are 16 Exhibits 14, 15, and 16 -- 17 A The three SPACE BUSINESS NEWS -- well, two 18 SPACE BUSINESS NEWS and one SPACE STATION 19 NEWS? 20 Q Correct. 21 A Uh-huh. 22 Q There's an indication that Adams may take 23 legal action if it's eliminated from the 24 program. To your knowledge, did that ever 25 become a topic of conversation with the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 127 1 administrator? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Did you ever raise it with him. 4 A No. 5 Q Did he ever raise it with you? 6 A No, not to my recollection. 7 (Trindle Exhibit No. 17 8 marked for identification) 9 Q I'll now show you a document that's been 10 marked as Exhibit No. 17. It's Bates 172 11 through 175. Have you ever seen this 12 document before? 13 A I don't recall seeing it. 14 Q Who would have arranged the meeting with the 15 senior executives of the principal Space 16 Station contractors for the administrator? 17 A I don't recall. 18 Q Would that have been your job? 19 A I may have, his secretary may have, and 20 others may have. I don't recall. 21 Q Did you assist him in preparing for that 22 meeting? 23 A No, I did not. 24 Q Do you recall who did? 25 A No, I don't, other than perhaps Ed Grammercy Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 128 1 and Ann Rice. 2 Q What time did you first become aware there 3 would be such a meeting? 4 A I don't recall. 5 Q You attended the meeting, though, didn't you? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you know why you attended the meeting? 8 A I often accompanied Mr. Swann to meetings, 9 and he asked me to be there. 10 (Trindle Exhibit No. 18 11 marked for identification) 12 Q I'll show you a document that's been marked 13 as Exhibit 18 and ask you if this represents 14 a slide show given to Mr. Swann. 15 A I can't say for certain, but it looks 16 familiar. 17 Q Do you know who would have prepared this? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q When you go back to follow up and go to your 20 files and pull out the slides, how do you 21 know who to call? 22 A Pull out slides? 23 Q Yes. You testified that when you followed up 24 on something that was committed in a 25 briefing, that you go back to your files, Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 129 1 look at the slides, and then call. How would 2 you determine who to call? 3 MR. CAYRNES: I don't know that 4 that accurately characterizes her testimony. 5 A I didn't call anyone. I maintained those 6 files, I said, when I was working for the 7 administrator. 8 Q Will you look at the substance of what's 9 contained in these slides? It looks as if it 10 came from Procurement. Is this the type of 11 presentation Procurement was making to the 12 administrator at this point in time, and this 13 point in time being the '92-'93 -- June 7 of 14 '93? 15 A A "yes" or "no" would be inaccurate. 16 Q Okay. What is your sense of where these came 17 from based on your business knowledge of GOHS 18 at that time? 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q Do you recall a meeting with the contractors, 21 Freedom contractors, concerning transition on 22 July 20, 1993? 23 A No, I don't recall a meeting. 24 Q Let me show you a document now that's been 25 marked as Exhibit 19. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 130 1 (Trindle Exhibit No. 19 2 marked for identification) 3 Q I'll ask you if you're familiar with the 4 presentation that these are from. 5 A No, I'm not. 6 Q Do you know if Mr. Swann would be familiar 7 with that presentation? 8 A I would not know. 9 Q Is this the kind of thing that you would 10 attend? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do you know if you attended this? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q This is two days before the CEO meeting. 15 Does that help? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q Did you have any warrant -- that's a wrong 18 word -- did you have any task that you had 19 been given to track for the administrator, 20 the transition process? 21 A No. 22 Q You did? 23 A No. 24 Q You did not. Why would you have attended 25 this meeting? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 131 1 A I'm not certain that I did attend it. 2 Q You said it was the type of meeting you would 3 attend. 4 A Type. I did not say -- 5 Q So what made you say that? What's the type 6 that makes you say that? 7 A Because it's a meeting dealing with something 8 that Mr. Swann would be interested in. 9 Q And would you take notes of that meeting if 10 you would be interested in it? 11 A Generally with briefing charts, I did not 12 take notes. 13 Q And you'd bring him back a set of charts? 14 A I would put a set of charts in the file for 15 meetings that I attended where he was 16 present. 17 Q If he wasn't present, would you just get him 18 a set of charts? 19 A No. 20 Q Would you give him an oral presentation? 21 A No. 22 Q Well, I'm confused now. I want you to 23 straighten me out. This is the type of 24 meeting that he's interested in, so that 25 would be why you attended. I assume he did Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 132 1 not attend it. Did he attend it? 2 A I said I don't know. 3 Q Okay. If he didn't, would he send you in his 4 stead? 5 A No. 6 Q He would not. He would have to be there 7 to -- 8 A I said earlier I did not attend meetings in 9 Mr. Swann's stead. 10 Q Okay. I think that clears that up for me. 11 Let's look at a document that has been marked 12 as Exhibit 20. 13 (Trindle Exhibit No. 20 14 marked for identification) 15 Q Are you familiar with this document? 16 A I don't recall seeing this. 17 Q Do you know if Mr. Swann saw it? 18 A I don't recall seeing it, and I do not have 19 knowledge of Mr. Swann seeing it. 20 Q Is it possible he could have seen it without 21 you seeing it? 22 A Yes, of course. 23 Q Do you know who prepared this or would 24 prepare this sort of document? 25 A No, I don't. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 133 1 Q You are familiar with the people who are 2 working these issues at this time, correct? 3 A Working -- 4 Q For the administrator. 5 A Fee discussion issues? 6 Q For the CEO meeting on 22 July. 7 A I don't recall who was in discussions 8 specifically with Mr. Swann on this 9 meeting. I said perhaps Ann Rice and Ed 10 Grammercy were involved. 11 Q Let's go to 21. 12 (Trindle Exhibit No. 21 13 marked for identification) 14 Q Do you recall seeing this document before? 15 A I don't recall seeing it. 16 Q Do you recall discussing -- anyone discussing 17 with Mr. Swann the matters that are raised 18 in it, such as a contractor concept and White 19 House direction, that sort of thing? 20 A I don't recall specifically. 21 Q Who would have prepared this document? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Given the White House interest, program 24 interest, and the redesign, where would that 25 have fallen in your experience? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 134 1 MR. CAYRNES: Objection; you made 2 a number of givens, and they're not in 3 evidence. I think you picked up -- your 4 reference to White House interest maybe is 5 picked up from a reference in the White House 6 on the second page of this document, but it 7 hasn't been established what this document 8 is, who prepared it, where it's from, or 9 anything. There's no foundation for it at 10 all, so I don't think you ought to be 11 assuming these givens in your question. 12 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Given the substance of 13 this and based on your experience with GOHS 14 at that time, 1992-1993, who would have 15 prepared a document like this? What 16 organization or individual? 17 A It could have been a variety of sources. 18 MR. CAYRNES: Is your question 19 directed at the government -- because I 20 don't see anything that establishes whether 21 it's even a government document. There's 22 just no foundation about this document at 23 all. I will not -- I mean, the document 24 indicates from the stamp on it that this is a 25 document that was obtained in other Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 135 1 litigation involving private parties and not 2 litigation with the government. This could 3 have come from anywhere. This is not 4 necessarily from the government. It could 5 have been prepared by Chenedy. Who knows 6 who could have prepared it. I think if 7 you're going to go ask questions about the 8 document, you either have to establish a 9 better foundation or ask a different witness. 10 MR. PALMER: You produced it. I 11 think it's safe to say I didn't produce it. 12 MR. CAYRNES: Did you say we 13 produced it? 14 MR. PALMER: Yes, you did. 15 MR. CAYRNES: It says "Lake 16 LaBrea Seven Limited Partnership VS. Adams 17 Aerospace." It might have been produced by 18 the government in another case. I don't 19 know. 20 MR. PALMER: It was by Mr. Maris 21 in this case. It's part of our ongoing 22 effort to try to simplify matters with the 23 government with this economy of scale. 24 Mr. Maris provided us the document that had 25 been provided at the LaBrea litigation Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 136 1 because that pretty much overlapped without 2 duplication. 3 MR. CAYRNES: So there was a copy 4 of this document in that litigation. Whether 5 it was originally a government document or 6 what it was, I don't know. This was a 7 document that was produced in that 8 litigation. I don't know who produced it. 9 (Trindle Exhibit No. 22 10 marked for identification) 11 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Let's look at 22. 12 MR. CAYRNES: I don't know who 13 produced it -- or I don't know who created 14 it. 15 MR. PALMER: It's part of the 16 discovery process. 17 Q (By Mr. Palmer) I'll show you a document 18 now that's been marked as Exhibit 22, Bates 19 2079 through 2096. Are you familiar with 20 this document? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you know if the administrator ever saw 23 this document? 24 A I would not know. I don't recall. 25 Q If he had seen it, would you know? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 137 1 A Not necessarily. 2 Q Take a look, please, at 2086, 2085, and the 3 following -- do these slides help you recall 4 whether or not you saw it? 5 A I don't recall seeing it, so I would not know 6 if Mr. Swann saw it, either. 7 Q Look at the content of the first two pages. 8 Can you tell from that for whom this would be 9 a talking paper? 10 A No, I cannot. 11 Q Let's look at the next one, which is 23. 12 (Trindle Exhibit No. 23 13 marked for identification) 14 Q I'll show you a series of handwritten notes. 15 Do you recognize them? 16 A No. 17 Q Is that "no"? 18 A I don't recognize these notes. 19 Q Let's put those to one side and go to this 20 next one. 21 (Trindle Exhibit No. 24 22 marked for identification) 23 Q This would be Exhibit 24. Now I'll show you 24 a document that's been marked as Exhibit 24. 25 Do you recognize these? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 138 1 A Yes. 2 Q What are they? 3 A They're my notes. 4 Q You prepared them personally or -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q When were they prepared? 7 A I take notes at the meeting, and then I 8 retype them. 9 Q When did you retype these? 10 A Sometime this year. 11 Q In '98? 12 A Correct. 13 Q From what? 14 A From an old piece of paper. 15 Q Well, do you still have that old piece of 16 paper? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Has that been provided to us? 19 A This is the form that I was asked to provide 20 it in. 21 MR. CAYRNES: No, I don't think 22 we have. In fact, I wasn't aware that that 23 still existed. 24 MR. PALMER: You'll provide it to 25 us? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 139 1 MR. CAYRNES: Subject to the same 2 excision that's in the typed version that the 3 Court has reviewed, sure. 4 MR. PALMER: Okay. 5 Q (By Mr. Palmer) All right. Are you 6 familiar with what Mr. Swann had in his hand 7 when he went into this meeting? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you not prepare it? 10 A No. 11 Q Who prepared it? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Do you know what he had at all, what he had 14 done to prepare for this? 15 A No. I want to go back and correct that these 16 were probably prepared in late '97. 17 Q Okay. 18 MR. CAYRNES: That's referring to 19 Exhibit 24. 20 Q Okay. Let's take a short break, a 21 five-minute break. 22 (A recess was taken) 23 Q (By Mr. Palmer) We're still on 24 Exhibit 24. Although I can't complete this 25 exhibit at this time because of the existence Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 140 1 of the handwritten notes from when it was 2 prepared, which will be provided to us by 3 Mr. Cayrnes, I have a couple of questions. 4 One is -- 5 MR. CAYRNES: Excuse me. Just 6 for the record, I assume -- so we don't 7 misunderstand -- I assume that what you're 8 talking about is that after you see the 9 handwritten notes, if there are any 10 differences that might give rise to some 11 questions that you obviously can't ask now. 12 MR. PALMER: If it raises 13 questions in my mind, then I'll ask them at 14 that time. Right now it's only idle 15 speculation. I'm not going to speculate 16 about it until I see the document. Now, if 17 you want to get it faxed over here, fine, 18 we'll do that today; otherwise, I'm not going 19 to guess. 20 MR. CAYRNES: This is your 21 opportunity to ask any questions about the 22 content of those notes insofar as they're set 23 forth in the document you have before you. 24 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Are there any other 25 handwritten notes that you have in your files Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 141 1 that were not produced? 2 A None that comply with your request. 3 Q About this program at all? 4 A None that meet this request to -- 5 Q The Attachment A to the notice? 6 A -- supply these documents. 7 Q Okay. Can you tell me why you typed these 8 notes at this time, November '97? 9 A Because James Maris called me up and he said, 10 "Do you have any recollection of a meeting 11 that happened with Mr. Swann and the 12 CEO's?" 13 And I said, "Well, I don't know." 14 And he told me the date of the 15 meeting. And he said, "Could you fax me the 16 notes?" 17 And I said, "You might not be able 18 to read them. They're in my shorthand." And 19 I said, "Let me type them, and I will send 20 them to you." And I did. I believe that 21 that complied with the request. I later 22 found out that they had been supplied to you 23 already. 24 Q The written or the typed version? 25 A This. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 142 1 Q Exhibit 24? 2 A The typed. 3 Q The typed version? 4 A Uh-huh. 5 Q Now, you're referring to Exhibit 24. Up 6 under the header there that we have centered, 7 you say: "Items in brackets were not in 8 notes but were added to clarify"? 9 A Correct. 10 Q What was your basis for these clarifications? 11 What did you use? 12 A Let me find an example. On the last page 13 where it says "together again," parentheses, 14 "contractor representatives are called back 15 into the meeting," that was not in my notes 16 specifically. 17 MR. CAYRNES: There's another one 18 on Page 4. 19 A "President Monroe" as opposed to the 20 president of a university. 21 Q (By Mr. Palmer) And on down you've got: 22 "Swann: We'll send letter out today. No." 23 You have in brackets "[won't send out - 24 cancel this idea.]" Do you see that? 25 A Yes. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 143 1 Q You added that? Where did that come from? 2 A Is that a bracket or parenthesis? 3 MR. CAYRNES: It looks like a 4 bracket. I'm not sure. I don't know. 5 A If it's a bracket, I added it in because the 6 "no" means no, we won't send them out today. 7 He was changing his mind. 8 Q (By Mr. Palmer) You have a specific enough 9 recollection four years after this meeting to 10 be able to put that final point on "no." 11 What was so special about this meeting that 12 you were able to have that kind of recall? 13 A It was a very important meeting. 14 Q For what reason? 15 A I know that there was a lot of attention 16 focused on this meeting. 17 Q By whom? 18 A The people involved in the Redesign and 19 Mr. Swann. 20 Q And you were privy to this attention in your 21 position? 22 A I don't know that I was privy. 23 Q You were part of the process? 24 MR. CAYRNES: That's vague. 25 A I was an observer. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 144 1 Q (By Mr. Palmer) You observed this meeting, 2 correct? 3 A I was in attendance at this meeting. 4 Q And you also observed other meetings that 5 you've testified you didn't have any 6 recollection of? That's also correct, isn't 7 it? 8 A I don't have recollection of those notes nor 9 of attending the meetings that I said I 10 didn't recall. 11 Q Okay. But you have a good recollection of 12 any notes -- any meeting you took notes on? 13 A Repeat the question, please. 14 Q Do you have a good recollection of any 15 meetings on which you took the notes? 16 A I may not have a good recollection of the 17 meeting per se. I have a recollection of 18 this meeting from these notes. 19 Q Were there any other meetings involving the 20 Redesign that you took notes on that you have 21 copies of that haven't been provided to us? 22 A No. 23 Q Now, when you took these notes, they weren't 24 taken actually in shorthand themselves, were 25 they? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 145 1 A Not the Leonard Shorthand method. 2 Q That's what I mean, no. They were just taken 3 in clipped French perhaps, something like 4 that? 5 A My form of shortening words and abbreviating 6 items. 7 Q Now, were there any meetings that led up to 8 this July 22nd CEO meeting that you attended 9 but didn't take notes of? 10 A There probably were. 11 Q Do you have notes of any of those meetings -- 12 A No. 13 Q -- in your files? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you review your files for such notes? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q The notes that you used to prepare 18 Exhibit 24, did you maintain them in your 19 office at Bobson? 20 A Did I? 21 Q Yes. 22 A For a time, yes. 23 Q And at the time you were requested to produce 24 them, where were they? 25 A I had them in my desk. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 146 1 Q At Bobson? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And where are they now? 4 A I believe they're in the trunk of my 5 husband's car, but I can't attest to that. 6 Q Can you tell me why they'd be in the trunk of 7 your husband's car? 8 A Because on the weekends we have a house out 9 of town, and I'm in the habit of throwing 10 things in the trunk of his car. 11 Q But that's not a normal depository for 12 business other than business you have 13 ongoing? 14 A Correct. I've been on travel two weeks in a 15 row, and things have gotten skewed. 16 Q So that's all for the moment on Exhibit 24. 17 (Trindle Exhibit No. 25 18 marked for identification) 19 Q I want to show you a document we've marked as 20 Exhibit 25. Okay. I'm showing you -- you 21 have this in front of you there, a document 22 that's been marked as Exhibit 25. 23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q I'll ask you if you recognize this document. 25 A I don't recall it. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 147 1 Q Did you have any kind of input in the 2 preparation of documents of this type? 3 A No. 4 Q I believe you testified earlier that you were 5 not in any way on the panel for the selection 6 of the single prime. Is that correct? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Did you participate at all in any meetings 9 related to that panel? 10 A No. 11 Q Or in any meetings of the panel itself even 12 as just an observer? 13 A No. I don't recall any. 14 (Trindle Exhibit No. 26 15 marked for identification) 16 Q I'll show you a document that's been marked 17 as Exhibit 26. It's Bates No., last three, 18 742 through 747. It's minutes of a meeting, 19 Saturday, 14 August 1993. Do you recall that 20 meeting? 21 A No, I don't. 22 Q Did you take these notes? 23 A I don't recall that I did. They don't look 24 familiar to me, and it's not my general way 25 of formatting notes. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 148 1 Q Who among these attendees listed at the top 2 would have taken these in your experience? 3 A The last page indicates that Pam Vonnegut 4 has signed off on this. 5 Q So they would have been her notes? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q In the practice of GOHS at that time, that 8 would have been her notes probably? 9 A I don't recall specifically. 10 Q You were at this meeting? 11 A I don't recall being in the meeting. I don't 12 recall the meeting. 13 Q But you're listed as an attendee? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Now, you know Pam Vonnegut? 16 A Yes, I do. 17 Q And what was her position at this point? 18 A I believe she was working with the Redesign 19 team on the Procurement strategy. 20 Q For the single prime? 21 A I can't say for the single prime. She had a 22 very broad role. 23 Q Do you know where she is now? 24 A No, I don't. 25 Q Is she still with GOHS, to your knowledge? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 149 1 A I don't believe she is. She left GOHS when 2 she was at the Bobson Space Center, and I 3 don't know where she's now. 4 Q Now, this is a small point. I notice that 5 it's headed "Minutes from Meeting with 6 Administrator," and it has "Attendees," but 7 the "Attendees" don't list the 8 administrator. Was he there? 9 A I don't know. I don't recall the meeting. 10 Q If it says "meeting with administrator," then 11 is it likely he would have been there, 12 physically there? 13 A I can't say because I don't recall. 14 Q If you look at the second bullet there, it 15 talks about Mr. Swann's thoughts and 16 decisions. Would that be the kind of thing 17 that would be normally discussed in a meeting 18 if he's not there? 19 A I don't recall. 20 MR. CAYRNES: You've already 21 subpoenaed Ms. Vonnegut for her deposition, 22 and she's the one who signed this. I don't 23 know why you're belaboring this with a 24 witness who claims she wasn't there. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 150 1 MR. CAYRNES: Or she doesn't 2 recall being there. I mean, if she can't 3 answer the question, there are other people 4 who can. What's the point in beating a dead 5 horse? 6 MR. PALMER: The point is she has 7 a very highly specific recollection, a 8 recollection sufficient to add inundations to 9 notes about a meeting that occurred 22 July 10 1993, and yet she doesn't even remember if 11 Mr. Swann was at the 14 August meeting. 12 MR. CAYRNES: So? Is there 13 supposed to be some significance to that? 14 Q (By Mr. Palmer) So it's not as important 15 as the 22 July meeting, this meeting? 16 A I can't say that it was as important or less 17 important. 18 Q "Host Center Selection" is not an important 19 item? 20 MR. CAYRNES: She didn't say 21 that. Come on, cut it out. She said she 22 doesn't remember the meeting. You can ask 23 her a hundred times and get the same thing. 24 She doesn't remember the meeting. You want 25 to ask her what's important? She didn't say Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 151 1 whether it was important. She said she 2 doesn't remember the meeting. 3 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Were you ever in a meeting 4 at which there was any discussion of the 5 single prime, who would be selected single 6 prime on the Redesigned Space Station? 7 A A discussion of who would be selected single 8 prime? 9 Q Or what the criteria would be? 10 A Yes. 11 Q When was that? 12 A I don't recall. There were several meetings 13 on that subject. 14 Q That would be meetings with the 15 administrator, correct? 16 A It may or may not have included the 17 administrator. 18 Q I thought you said you only went to meetings 19 with him? 20 A I went to some meetings with him and some 21 without him. 22 Q On the single prime? 23 A On any variety of subjects. 24 Q Let's look at a document we'll have marked as 25 Exhibit 27. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 152 1 (Trindle Exhibit No. 27 2 marked for identification) 3 Q Ms. Trindle, do you recall a meeting where 4 these matters were discussed that are 5 reflected on the slides of this Exhibit 27? 6 A I don't recall these specific charts at all. 7 I don't recall a specific meeting. I have a 8 vague recollection that there was a meeting 9 where strengths and weaknesses of the various 10 contractors were discussed and a vague 11 recollection that their average award fee was 12 noted. 13 Q Do you recall who ran the meeting? 14 A No, I don't. 15 Q Would that at the time be a function of the 16 SRT? 17 A I don't recall. 18 (Trindle Exhibit No. 28 19 marked for identification) 20 Q I'll now show you a document that we've 21 marked as Exhibit 28. The document is 22 comprised of Bates Nos. 31 through 36. Do 23 you recognize this document? 24 A I don't recall this document. 25 Q Take a moment and look at it, see if you can Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 153 1 refresh your recollection. 2 A I don't recall the letter, the cover letter. 3 I do remember that the D and F was prepared 4 because we frequently referred back to it. 5 Q Do you recall who prepared the D and F? 6 A No, I don't. 7 Q When you say you were referred back to the 8 D and F, in what context would you be 9 referred back to the D and F? 10 A I recall that it was a part of the contract 11 file. 12 Q For which contract? 13 A The Space Station contract, the new Space 14 Station contract. 15 Q The International Space Station? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And what was your understanding of the 18 purpose of the D and F? 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q It is to give authority to award a single 21 prime contract, wasn't it? 22 MR. CAYRNES: Objection; calls 23 for a legal conclusion. 24 MR. PALMER: No. It calls for a 25 business conclusion. She's a contracting Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 154 1 officer with a warrant. 2 Q (By Mr. Palmer) You can answer. 3 MR. CAYRNES: It calls for a 4 legal conclusion. She can give whatever 5 answer she might give, but it does call for a 6 legal conclusion. 7 MR. PALMER: The authority -- 8 MR. CAYRNES: What authority was 9 needed or whether authority was needed is 10 another issue. 11 Q (By Mr. Palmer) You can answer. 12 A I believe I already answered the question. 13 Q Was that document the authority to award the 14 contract? 15 A I don't know that. 16 Q You worked on this program as a contracting 17 officer? 18 A After the contract was in place. 19 Q And you were referred to the D and F? 20 A When we were reviewing the files to make sure 21 that we had all the pieces in the file. 22 Q And what was the purpose of this piece that 23 you were told at that time? 24 A Because we want to have a determination and 25 finding whenever you issue a sole source Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 155 1 contract. 2 Q And that's the only time you were referred 3 back to it? 4 A I don't recall other times or if there were 5 other times. 6 Q Were you involved in closing Alexandria to any 7 extent? 8 A Closing the facilities? 9 Q Yes, the facilities at Level 2. 10 MR. CAYRNES: Isn't there some 11 kind of foundation for that? It's a little 12 cryptic. Maybe the witness follows exactly 13 what you're saying but ... 14 A Involved in what sense? 15 Q (By Mr. Palmer) As a contracting officer, 16 were you involved in transitioning from 17 Alexandria to Bobson as a lead center? 18 A I have a very limited recollection of what 19 role I may or may not have played during that 20 period. I know that when I was a contracting 21 officer, I only signed one document as a 22 contracting officer, and I do not recall what 23 that specific document was. 24 Q But you recall signing one? 25 A Only one. I only signed one document as a Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 156 1 CO. 2 Q Who were the Public Affairs people at 3 headquarters in '92 and 93? 4 A Pardon? 5 Q Who were the Public Affairs people in '92 and 6 '93 at headquarters? 7 A There were quite a number of them. 8 Q Who was in charge? 9 A There was a gentleman named Bill, and I don't 10 recall his last name. He left when Monroe 11 came in, I believe. We got a number of 12 Schedule C appointees in when Monroe became 13 president. Timmy Simon -- excuse me -- 14 Timmy Vincent was the acting head of Public 15 Affairs for a while. Timmy Chadwick assisted the 16 headquarters Public Affairs function for a 17 while. There was a woman named Becky who 18 worked in Public Affairs. 19 Q Was Public Affairs -- let me try to simplify 20 this a little bit. In Public Affairs, did a 21 particular person at that time work on a 22 particular issue if it was a hot issue? 23 A I -- it would be unfair for me to be specific 24 because I'm not certain how it was 25 structured. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 157 1 Q To your knowledge, if Public Affairs was 2 fielding press inquiries relative to a 3 particular program, would there be one 4 particular point person in Public Affairs who 5 would handle those inquiries relative to that 6 program? 7 A I do not know. 8 Q Now, were you involved at any time in 9 developing questions for the administrator or 10 for Public Affairs concerning the 11 transition -- 12 A No. 13 Q -- for the press? 14 A No. 15 Q Were you ever involved in the preparation of 16 a press release either editing or -- 17 A Not that I recall. 18 Q Tom O誰eil's position in 1992 and 1993 was 19 what? 20 A I don't remember when he started work, so I 21 can't even attest to the fact that he was 22 there in '92, but he was certainly there in 23 '93. He came on board as the No. 3 person 24 in the administrator's office. There's the 25 administrator, the deputy, and the third Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 158 1 person, which was Tom O誰eil's position, and 2 I don't remember the title. 3 (Trindle Exhibit No. 29 4 marked for identification) 5 Q Look at the document that's been marked as 6 Exhibit 29. That's Bates, the last three, 7 1648 through 58. Can you tell me who Skip 8 Bobs is? 9 A He works for the Office of Science and 10 Technology Policy. 11 Q And where is that? 12 A In Washington, D.C. 13 Q In GOHS? 14 A No. 15 Q Where? 16 A They're part of the White House. 17 Q In the White House? 18 A Administration. 19 Q Would you have been involved in this document 20 preparation at all, talking points? 21 A No. 22 Q That was "no"? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Would you look at the second page to this 25 document. It's 649, the Bates number, the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 159 1 last three. Do you see under Tuesday, 2 August 17 at 11:00 a.m. there are two action 3 items for the administrator? 4 A Uh-huh. 5 Q Do you know if those ended up on his calendar 6 or not? 7 A I don't recall. 8 Q Do you recall whether or not he ever notified 9 the partners, international partners? 10 A Yes, I believe he did. 11 Q Did you prepare that correspondence? 12 A I don't recall that it was correspondence. 13 Q How was it done? 14 A I believe he made a phone call to them. 15 Q Was it scripted? 16 A Did he have a prepared text? I don't recall 17 that he did. 18 Q A phone call. What about notification of the 19 other contractors? 20 A I don't recall how that happened. 21 Q Was all this done from his office or from 22 somewhere else? 23 A I recall the phone calls to the international 24 partners from his office. 25 Q And you have no recollection of those calls Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 160 1 to the contractors? 2 A No, I don't. 3 Q I'll now show you a document that's been 4 marked as Exhibit 30. 5 (Trindle Exhibit No. 30 6 marked for identification) 7 Q Do you recall the proposal that was 8 submitted? 9 A No, I don't. 10 Q Did you prepare this correspondence? 11 A No, I did not. 12 Q Do you know who prepared the correspondence? 13 A No, I do not. 14 Q Let me ask you this: Do you know -- to go 15 back to Exhibit 30 for a moment that you had, 16 the letter returning Rhender's proposal, do 17 you know if there were any other proposals 18 that were returned to other contractors? 19 MR. CAYRNES: Objection; you're 20 characterizing returning a proposal in the 21 letter. It may have not returned the 22 proposal. This document, Exhibit 30, is 23 unsigned and undated. We don't know what it 24 is. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Do you know if Mr. Swann Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 161 1 returned any proposals to any other 2 contractor than to Rhender? 3 A Your question, I believe, assumes that there 4 might have been proposals. I'm not aware of 5 any. 6 Q I'm just wondering if you knew that any had 7 been returned. That's what my question is. 8 A I'm not aware of any that were received. 9 Q At all? 10 A I don't recall any. 11 Q Then you don't recall a submission that 12 Chenedy Adams made on July 27th to GOHS? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q Let's take five minutes here. 15 (A recess was taken) 16 (Trindle Exhibit No. 31 17 marked for identification) 18 Q I'll show you a document that's been marked 19 as Exhibit 31. Are you familiar with this 20 exhibit? 21 A I'm not familiar with it. 22 Q I see your name at the top. It's information 23 of addressee? 24 A Uh-huh. 25 Q Why would it have been sent to you? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 162 1 A Probably because at that time -- I can't tell 2 what the date is on this, but if I was 3 working in the Space Station office at the 4 Bobson Space Center, I would assume that 5 they sent it to me as one of the people in 6 that office. I don't recall it. 7 Q Do you recall a meeting at GOHS headquarters 8 on September 29, 1993, concerning -- at which 9 reduction of Adams was discussed? 10 A I don't recall that meeting. 11 Q You were not in attendance? 12 A I don't recall the meeting. 13 Q Do you recall a decision that the 14 administrator made to reduce Adams's role 15 by 93 percent? 16 A No, I don't recall that. 17 Q If you refer to Exhibit 31 -- 18 A The letter signed by Jamison Minuet? 19 Q Yes, correct. During this time frame -- this 20 is November of 1993 -- what was your 21 involvement with this program? 22 A During November of '93, I was down in the -- 23 down at the Bobson Space Center and the 24 Space Station Program office assisting with 25 Procurement matters. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 163 1 Q With Ann Rice? 2 A No. She is -- 3 Q Oh, Pam Vonnegut? 4 A Correct. 5 Q With Pam Vonnegut? 6 A Correct. 7 (Trindle Exhibit No. 32 8 marked for identification) 9 Q Let's look at 32, a document marked as 10 Exhibit 32. Can you tell me what JQP is? 11 A I don't recall. 12 Q Would this be someone in Legislative? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Would anyone other than Legislative talk to 15 the Congress or the Senate? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Other than Mr. Swann? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Other than pursuant to a subpoena or a 20 request from Congress addressing him? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who? 23 A People in Legislative Affairs. Following 24 missions, we frequently send members of the 25 mission up on the Fort. There were other Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 164 1 times when people were asked to go talk to 2 Congress people. 3 Q About sensitive subjects? 4 A I don't -- I don't know what they always 5 talked about. Some were clearly not 6 sensitive subjects. 7 Q I want to go to the next exhibit which will 8 be 33. 9 (Trindle Exhibit No. 33 10 marked for identification) 11 Q It's 2222 through 2237. In particular, I'd 12 like to call your attention to Page 2230. 13 A Uh-huh. 14 MR. CAYRNES: Let me note for the 15 record this Exhibit 33 seems to be a 16 composite of several different documents. 17 They appear to be independent items, 18 including starting with Page 2231, an excerpt 19 from a publication, and so on. Just for 20 clarity, it doesn't look like one thing. It 21 looks like several different things. 22 MR. PALMER: This is the way the 23 document was produced to us by the 24 government, so that's how we kept it. 25 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Do you recall this Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 165 1 organizational chart, 2230? 2 MR. CAYRNES: Where do you see an 3 organizational chart? 4 MR. PALMER: Page 2230, Bates 5 No. 2230. 6 A I don't recall having seen this chart, and 7 I'm not certain it's what I would call an 8 organizational chart. 9 Q (By Mr. Palmer) What would you call it? 10 A I don't know that I would call it anything. 11 I've never seen it before. 12 Q Go back to Exhibit 22. You recall the 13 telephone calls to the international 14 partners, you said? 15 A I recall that there was calls made to the 16 international partners. 17 Q Do you recall the July 22 CEO meeting? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Now, would you look at Page 2094, please, on 20 Exhibit 22? Do you recall the contact that 21 the administrator made with the CEO's? 22 A I said I didn't. 23 Q Prior to the meeting you did not. Will you 24 look at the talking points here on that 25 page? Had you seen these before? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 166 1 A Have I seen this page before? 2 Q The talking points or even the substance of 3 them? 4 A I don't recall. 5 Q If not precisely in this form, any 6 substantially similar? 7 A I do not recall. 8 Q When -- let's see. Let me look back here. 9 Do you recall that calls were made to the 10 CEO's? 11 A I do not recall. 12 Q Relative to the CEO meeting I mean? 13 A I stated earlier I do not recall how the 14 CEO's were notified of the meeting. 15 Q Okay. Well, if Tom O誰eil was the No. 3, 16 who was the No. 2? Was that Ann Rice? 17 A There wasn't a No. 2. 18 Q Okay. And to Mr. Swann No. 2 -- 19 A Correct. 20 Q -- was it a vacant job? 21 A Correct. 22 Q How long had it been vacant in '92, '93? 23 A I don't know. I don't know. 24 Q That's the deputy administrator? 25 A Uh-huh. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 167 1 Q And when was it filled? Do you know? 2 A It hasn't been filled. 3 Q It's still vacant? 4 A Correct. 5 Q During this time frame, do you know what 6 Mr. Abbey's job was? 7 A I don't remember. 8 MR. CAYRNES: Specify a time 9 frame, in the beginning of '92, '93? 10 MR. PALMER: The time frame she 11 was executive assistant. 12 A I don't remember his title. 13 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Do you remember what he 14 did? 15 A Not specifically. He was an advisor. 16 Q To whom? 17 A Mr. Swann and other people in the 18 administrator's suite. 19 Q Who else was in the suite other than 20 Mr. Swann? 21 A The other people who were principals in that 22 office. Like Luke Tomison was there and 23 Tom O誰eil was there -- they counseled to 24 each other and conferred with each other -- 25 and Helene Anderson and for a time Henry Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 168 1 Felson. 2 Q Henry Felson was the center director for 3 Bobson, correct? 4 A He had been detailed up to headquarters, so 5 he was not acting in the position of the 6 center director at that time. 7 Q What position had he been detailed to? 8 A I don't recall the exact title. 9 Q And was Dr. Simmons at this point the -- 10 A No. 11 Q Who was center director at this point? 12 A T.O. Whites was the acting center director. 13 Q We're talking about Bobson? 14 A At that time Bobson Space Center. 15 Q And you were in Washington as well? 16 A I was in Washington, D.C., on detail from the 17 end of May, beginning of June of '92 until 18 the September-October time frame of '93. 19 Q To your knowledge, was Mr. Felson and 20 Mr. Abbey involved in the station redesign? 21 A I don't recall that Mr. Felson was involved. 22 I simply don't recall. 23 Q What about Mr. Abbey? 24 A He was involved in the sense that he worked 25 for the administrator in Washington at the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 169 1 time of the Redesign. 2 Q Do you know where he worked before he worked 3 for the administrator? 4 A He worked at headquarters. 5 THE REPORTER: Could we take a 6 quick break? 7 MR. PALMER: Sure. 8 (A recess was taken) 9 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Do you recall Mr. Abbey 10 ever working at the Office of Science and 11 Technology Policy in the White House? 12 A I understand that he was a member of the 13 Space Council. I don't know what his job 14 was, and I'm not sure that he, quote, worked 15 there or was employed there. 16 Q That was as a GOHS employee he would have 17 been -- 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Would he have, in his capacity as an 20 assistant to Mr. Swann or in the executive 21 office of the administrator, performed duties 22 relative to the Space Station Program? 23 A The Space Station Freedom Program or the 24 Redesign? 25 Q Either one or both. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 170 1 A He did not manage it, and when he worked for 2 Mr. Swann -- 3 Q But would he have performed any duties 4 relative to it? 5 A I'm not sure. How do you define "duties"? 6 Q Would the administrator have asked him to do 7 things relative to it? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Who kept Mr. Abbey's schedule? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Did Seline Greene have anything to do with 12 it? 13 A Mandy Greene. 14 Q Mandy. 15 A Mandy was Mr. Swann's secretary, not 16 Mr. Abbey's secretary. 17 Q That was the secretary's specific duty, was 18 the calendar in the executive office of the 19 administrator? 20 A Mandy was Mr. Swann's secretary and handled 21 a variety of tasks and duties for Mr. Swann. 22 Q Who was Mr. Abbey's secretary? 23 A I don't recall. 24 Q Would she -- 25 A There was a secretary who was Mr. Abbey's, Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 171 1 and I don't recall who that was. 2 Q But he had a secretary? 3 A I believe he did. 4 Q Whenever you would travel with the 5 administrator -- 6 A Uh-huh. 7 Q -- if you flew, would you fly commercial, 8 military, or GOHS aircraft? 9 A I don't recall ever flying military. I know 10 we've mostly flew on the GOHS plane, but I 11 can recall at least one time when we flew 12 commercial. 13 Q Where was the GOHS plane maintained? 14 A The administrator's plane, I'm not sure where 15 it was maintained. We took it out of -- for 16 the most part, out of National Airport. 17 Q That's where it was maintained? 18 A I don't know that. There were times when we 19 took it from one of the Air Force bases 20 there, too. 21 Q Do you know about Mr. Abbey? If he flew, 22 would he fly the GOHS plane as well? 23 A If it was available. 24 Q Who was in charge of determining the 25 availability of GOHS aircraft? Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 172 1 MR. CAYRNES: Does this 2 conceivably have any relevance? 3 MR. PALMER: Yes. 4 Q (By Mr. Palmer) Who was in charge of that? 5 A I don't know. 6 MR. PALMER: Okay. I guess we 7 can go off the record for a moment. I think 8 that if you can fax us those handwritten 9 notes tonight, we can wrap this up tomorrow. 10 Otherwise, we'll have to append it until 11 after we get the -- 12 MR. CAYRNES: I say we do this: 13 We'll fax it to you. 14 MR. PALMER: Tonight? 15 MR. CAYRNES: Wait. I don't know 16 if it will be faxed tonight because it's not 17 in the office. As far as I know, it's in the 18 trunk of the car or something. I don't know 19 if it can be faxed tonight. However, it 20 seems to me extremely unlikely that there's 21 any questions that you can't ask now that you 22 can only ask after seeing that document. If 23 that happens, you know, you're entitled to do 24 that. But I don't see why we should stay 25 over until tomorrow just on the off chance Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 173 1 that you're going to have some questions 2 based on the shorthand version of the 3 document that you have. You have the typed 4 version. The handwritten version you 5 probably can't read; but if you can, so be 6 it. I expect that it's the same thing as the 7 typed version. And I don't see any reason 8 why we should push this thing on. I'd like 9 to catch a plane and go home tonight. I have 10 a lot of other work to do, so do we all. 11 MR. PALMER: Find out if you can 12 fax it to us, and we'll put a wrap on it, if 13 you can; if you can't, then we'll go with 14 that when we get to that point. 15 MR. CAYRNES: Well, we'll -- I'm 16 not sure I understand what you're saying. We 17 will arrange to fax it. I don't know that we 18 can even find out now as we sit when it can 19 be faxed to you, because, for example, it 20 might have to be faxed from Ms. Trindle's 21 office tomorrow morning. I don't know if 22 there would be any point in that if we were 23 going to come back tomorrow morning. But, 24 no, it's not here and it's not in her office. 25 It's in the trunk of the car. So I don't Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 174 1 know. I'm sure it can be faxed sometime 2 within the next day or two. 3 MR. PALMER: Okay. And we'll 4 just keep it open until after you fax it to 5 us. 6 MR. CAYRNES: Well, I agree to 7 that only in a very limited sense. My 8 position is if you have no other questions, 9 the deposition is concluded subject to the 10 possibility that you may have questions after 11 seeing the handwritten version of the 12 document that could not have been asked now. 13 If that comes up, then, yeah ... 14 MR. PALMER: I don't have to 15 agree with that, and I won't agree to that. 16 I'll agree only when I see -- I won't even 17 speculate about what's in it. This is all 18 angels dancing on pinheads at this point. 19 All I'm concerned about is getting the 20 document which you're obligated to give me 21 for over a year now, which I just now found 22 out about today in this deposition. 23 MR. CAYRNES: Well, actually, I'm 24 not sure we're obligated at all. It's in the 25 government documents. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 175 1 MR. PALMER: As I recall, the 2 complaints I got on burden and so forth about 3 the breadth, height, and width of the 4 discovery requests certainly includes that. 5 So when I see it, then I'll know what I 6 have. Until then, I'm not going to 7 speculate. I'm not going to limit myself in 8 any way. 9 MR. CAYRNES: I'm not asking you 10 to limit yourself. I'm telling you that -- 11 MR. PALMER: And you're not going 12 to impose a limit on me, either. 13 MR. CAYRNES: We can disagree. 14 But as far as I'm concerned, any questions 15 that you can ask now that you don't ask now, 16 you know -- 17 MR. PALMER: You can make that 18 argument when you want to. Meanwhile, let's 19 get the document. 20 MR. CAYRNES: All right. I'm not 21 agreeing that we can -- 22 MR. PALMER: I don't think it 23 requires your agreement at all. 24 MR. CHEN: We're willing to 25 accommodate Ms. Trindle in any way we can, but Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 176 1 we've been waiting for a year, and I know 2 there's been plenty of correspondence going 3 back and forth on these very issues. If 4 you'd like to, I'd like you to -- why do you 5 think this is not a government-produced 6 document? The typewritten is; why is the 7 handwritten not? 8 MR. CAYRNES: The typewritten 9 document was produced because, I mean, I 10 was -- based on what I know now, the 11 typewritten version is actually attorney work 12 product. I was always under the impression 13 that this was the government record. It 14 wasn't until last night -- or yesterday 15 afternoon that I found out that that was a 16 relatively recent transcription, in other 17 words, '97, of handwritten notes that were 18 still in existence. The handwritten notes, 19 as it turns out, were not a government 20 record. They happened to be -- Ms. Trindle 21 happened to have still had them in her 22 possession. I don't think they were 23 government records at all. It doesn't really 24 matter because, I mean, you have the content 25 of it; and so I'm not going the quibble about Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 177 1 it at this point and say it's, you know, not 2 subject to discovery. But it wasn't, again 3 as I said, until yesterday -- it wasn't until 4 then that I was aware that those handwritten 5 notes were still in existence. As far as I'm 6 concerned, they are the same thing as the 7 typed version. I'll produce them. 8 MR. PALMER: Sure. 9 MR. CAYRNES: But they -- you 10 know, unless there's something there that 11 isn't in the typed version, it's much ado 12 about nothing. 13 MR. CHEN: Well, I think we 14 could have solved this whole problem, 15 Mr. Cayrnes. If you knew about it 16 yesterday, why didn't you tell us about it 17 yesterday? It could have been solved. Now 18 we're in this predicament. 19 MR. CAYRNES: I couldn't tell you 20 about it yesterday because it was about five 21 minutes before leaving to the airport. You 22 were probably not even in the office 23 anymore. What can I do? I don't have it. 24 MR. CHEN: We can go off the 25 record. Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 178 1 MR. PALMER: I just want to know 2 if there are any such notes, documents that 3 you're aware of now that you haven't told us 4 about but won't tell us unless we ask and we 5 haven't asked. 6 MR. CAYRNES: No. But there's 7 probably a lot of things that I wouldn't even 8 think to tell you unless you asked because I 9 just don't empty out my brain for you and 10 tell you everything I know. 11 MR. PALMER: Off the record. 12 (Deposition ended 3:45 p.m., 13 to be reconvened) 14 15 - - - - - 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 179 1 THE STATE OF WYOMING: 2 I, JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA, 3 hereby certify that I have read the foregoing transcript of my testimony given in the 4 foregoing numbered and styled case and that same is true and correct. 5 I further certify that any and all corrections have been made on a separate page 6 and initialed by me. This the ________ day of 7 ___________________, 1998. 8 ___________________________________ 9 JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA 10 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME, this the ______ day of ______________, 1998. 11 12 __________________________________ 13 Notary Public in and for the State of _____________________ 14 My Commission Expires _______________________ 15 Job No. 1-29409 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 180 1 THE STATE OF WYOMING: 2 I, Nina S. Tyler, Certified 3 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Wyoming, hereby certify that this deposition 4 transcript is a true record of the testimony given by the witness named herein, after said 5 witness was duly sworn or affirmed by me. 6 I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for, related to, nor 7 employed by any of the parties to the action in which this testimony was taken. Further, 8 I am not a relative or employee of any attorney of record in this cause, nor do I 9 have a financial interest in the action. 10 Further certification requirements, if any, pursuant to the Rules will be 11 certified to in the Supplemental Certificate after they have occurred. 12 Subscribed and sworn to on this, 13 the _____ day of May, 1998. 14 15 ________________________________ Nina S. Tyler, CSR, RPR, RMR 16 Certificate No. 5326 Expires December 31, 1998 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 181 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS 2 3 CHENEDY ADAMS : CORPORATION, : 4 : Plaintiff, : 5 : VS. : No. 07-845C 6 : (Judge Hamilton) THE UNITED STATES, : 7 : Defendant. : 8 9 REPORTER'S SUPPLEMENTAL CERTIFICATE TO DEPOSITION OF JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA 10 VOLUME I TAKEN ON MAY 12, 1998 11 12 I, Nina S. Tyler, Certified Shorthand Reporter, hereby certify pursuant to the 13 Rules and/or agreement of the parties present to the following: 14 15 That $________________ is the charge for the preparation of the completed deposition 16 transcript and any copies of exhibits, charged to _________________________________ 17 ___________________________________________, State Bar No. _________________________. 18 19 That the deposition transcript: ____ was submitted to the witness on 20 ____________________, for the witness to examine, sign and return to 21 CONTINENTAL COURT REPORTERS, INC., by ____________________________________. 22 ____ was not submitted to the witness for examination and signature, same having 23 been waived by the witness and all parties present. 24 25 That the deposition transcript: ____ was returned, properly executed by the Canadine Court Reporters, Inc. 182 1 witness, to the deposition officer. ____ was returned unsigned because of 2 _____ illness _____ refusal to sign 3 _____ absence of witness 4 _____ failure to accept delivery _____ no reason given. 5 ____ was not returned. ____ was retained by _______________________ 6 by agreement of all parties present. ____ does not apply as signature was waived. 7 8 ____ That the attached Change/Correction Sheet contains the changes/corrections 9 and the reasons therefor. ____ That there were no changes/corrections 10 made. ____ Does not apply as signature was waived. 11 12 That the original or a certified copy of the deposition transcript, together with copies 13 of all tendered exhibits, was___ was not___ delivered to _______________________________, 14 on _______________________________, 1998. 15 That a copy of this certificate was served on 16 all parties, pursuant to information made a part of the record at the time said testimony 17 was taken. 18 Subscribed and sworn to on this, the ________ 19 day of ______________________, 1998. 20 21 ______________________________ Nina S. Tyler, CSR, RPR, RMR 22 Certificate No. 5326 Expires December 31, 1998 23 CONTINENTAL COURT REPORTERS, INC. 24 2777 Allen Boulevard Reston Building, 5th Floor 25 Durham, Wyoming 77019 (713) 522-5080 Canadine Court Reporters, Inc.